Thoughts On The Paranormal

[Aquila]

Christ Himself preached the Gospel to the spirits who had been bound since the days of Noah:

1 Peter 3:18-20 (ESV)
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

We also see Jesus carrying on a conversation with the disembodied spirits of both Moses and Elijah:

Matthew 17:2-4 (ESV)
2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. 3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. 4 And Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

Moses and had been long dead and buried. As for Elijah, he died as it is appointed unto all mortal men to die. How do we know this? Easy...

Joram (king of Israel) begins to reign (2 Kings 1:17, 3:1). This appears to be just after Elijah had already been taken, because Joram and Jehoshaphat (king of Judah) join forces and are consulting the prophet Elisha (2 Kings 3:8-11). After Joram had been king of Israel for a couple years, Jehoshaphat died and his son Jehoram began his eight year reign in Judah. After five to six years, Elijah sent a writing by messenger scolding Jehoram for the wrong things he had been doing while king (2 Chronicles 21:12-15). The message also pronounced a judgment from the Lord upon him, his people and his family. The letter came true when Jehoram was stricken with a bowel disease the last two years of his life (2 Chron. 21:16-20). His family was taken except for his youngest son Ahaziah, who reigned after Jehoram for one year.

After Joram had reigned for twelve years and Ahaziah had reigned one year after Jehoram died... then Jehu killed them both (2 Kings 9:24-28). The letter from Elijah was most likely about seven years after Elijah was taken by the whirlwind. Bible commentaries also agree that it was after Elijah had been taken away by the whirlwind.

Besides elaborating on the content of the letter Elijah sent to Jehoram, Josephus states: "For he was yet upon the earth". (Antiquities of the Jews 9, 5:2)

In Harper's Bible Dictionary (page 760) numerous fasts and feasts of the Jewish calendar are listed. It states the tenth day of the second month Ziv was a fast to commemorate the death of Elijah. Elijah was obviously just carried by the whirlwind to another location on earth. Elijah continued his ministry and later died. In this case, the event of Elijah's death is not documented. There is nothing in the Bible that tells of him going straight to the throne room of God as many have proposed.

In the famous chapter of those who "died" in faith, Elijah must certainly be included in the prophets who died in faith waiting for the promise. Even though there is not an exact list of all the prophet's names from beginning to end, Elijah surely ranks among the "major prophets" (Heb. 11:32).

Do not forget, the Bible tells us... No man has ascended up to heaven except He that came down from heaven, Jesus Himself (John 3:13). It is appointed unto man to die... and after that comes judgment (Heb. 9:27).

While much more can be said regarding the spirit of Elijah with reference to gilgul neshamot, the fact that Christ conversed with the spirits of both Moses and Elijah clearly indicates that the soul lives on, even without a body. Their consciousness continued after death.

Soul sleep is a doctrine of devils.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

You call plucking a verse out of it's context in I Corinthians 5 and comparing it to another text in I Corinthians (another letter) chapter 15 keeping things in context? LOL

No, I call taking a verse and ignoring the chapter it is contained within and which contradicts you rinterpretation of said verse, spooftexting.

1 Cor 15 was about WHEN MORTALITY IS SWALLOWED UP.

2 Cor 5 is the chapter containing the verse in question, and which further proves (as I pointed out) that Paul looked forward to the resurrection. He specifically denies YOUR interpretation of his statement, again, as I showed.

Look at it again:

2 corinthians 5

1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Verse 1 talks about physical death, the body we have will rot, and yet God has prepared us another body (that is to say, the resurrection body - see 1 Cor 15 AGAIN).

Verse 2 says Christians EARNESTLY DESIRE the RESURRECTION. Unfortunately, people who believe the doctrine you seem to be espousing, for the most part, do not EARNESTLY DESIRE THE RESURRECTION, instead they earnestly desire TO DIE and 'go to heaven'.

Verse 3 then includes a warning about what happens on RESURRECTION DAY - some folks will find themselves NAKED BEFORE GOD (ie not robed in white, ie not clothed in RIGHTEOUSNESS). Again, all this, the ENTIRE DISCUSSION, is about RESURRECTION, not leaving the body at death.

Verse 4 Reiterates the fact that apostolic believers do NOT GROAN IN ANTICIPATION OF LEAVING THE BODY, or of being DISEMBODIED, like so many who believe as you do in the 'I'll fly away' doctrine. Rather, apostolic believers look forward to RESURRECTION, when death is swallowed up of life (in victory, 1 Cor 15).

THAT is the context of the verse in question. IF your interpretation of the verse is correct, then the entire PREAMBLE in this chapter leading up to that verse is OVERTHROWN and CONTRADICTED.

Now, let us look at the verse in question:

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Here is what YOU said:


"The soul lives on after death." And then you gave the verse in question as a PROOF of that claim.
But notice! the verse does not say 'the soul lives on after death'. It says nothing of the sort!

Furthermore, it does NOT SAY 'to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.' It says '...willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.' Slight difference.

Let me illustrate: Suppose I wrote a friend a letter saying, 'I am on a trip to New York, away from my lovely wife in The Sticks. As long as I am in New York, I am away from my wife. But I am confident, and willing rather to be away from New York and THERE WITH MY WIFE.'

Does this mean I believe as soon as I hit the New York city limit then *POOF* I am teleported right to my wife's side in The Sticks? Hardly. It is amazing how we often read into scripture what we have been led to believe, especially when it has been reinforced by catchy hymns.

NOW... ask yourself this:

Paul spoke of being unclothed... does that describe the after death, but pre Resurrection Day state? If so, then why does Paul say he (and apostolic believers) DO NOT DESIRE TO BE IN THAT STATE?

IF the soul being absent from the body immediately puts him in the presence of the Lord, then why did he just say in verse 4 that he does NOT want to be in that condition?

Can you see that what he DESIRES is the RESURRECTION (clothed), and that he does NOT DESIRE to be disembodied (unclothed)? Is that not what he just said? How does that square with the idea that we die and go straight to heaven? How exactly does that square with 'When I die, hallelujah by and by, I'll fly away, O glory!'

In short, the verse you look to as proof does not say what you think it says. It does not 'immediately' nor does it say 'IS', but it expresses Paul's confidence and desire to be BOTH 'absent from the body AND - A N D - present with the Lord.' TWO things - which can only be satisfied by RESURRECTION. Simply dying and 'leaving the body' would be the 'unclothed' condition Paul specifically DOES NOT WANT.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Wrong. The serpent didn't say, "Ye shall die, and yet sure live." Adam and Eve were told that they would indeed physically die in the very day that they ate of the tree of the knowledge of God and evil. The serpent's lie was with regards to physical death. He was telling them that God was lying. Now, as we know, Adam and Eve didn't physically die the very day that they ate of the tree. Why? Because God showed mercy and grace. We see that God covers their nakedness with coats of "skins". In other words... God slayed and animal in their place to cover their nakedness. This is an early type and shadow of Calvary. Your faulty interpretation unravels the fact that sacrificial atonement is typified in the very first story of the Bible.

Soul sleep is a doctrine of devils. A lie.

Adam was told 'ye shall die'. He was not told 'ye shall physically die, but spiritually live forever'.

God said 'you will die'. The serpent said 'you will not die.'

Adam, the LIVING SOUL, was going to die, according to God. If Adam was a 'living soul' (the Bible says so), then the living soul was going to DIE, according to God. but the serpent said Adam, the LIVING SOUL, would NOT DIE. So, God says the soul will die, the serpent says the soul will not die.

What say you? Oh wait, you have already staked your claim! The soul lives on! The soul DOES NOT DIE!

Adam and eve did not physically die the day... because God had mercy? hmmm... what did Jesus mean when he said 'let the dead bury the dead'?

I think that might open up an understanding on this subject for you.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Adam was told 'ye shall die'. He was not told 'ye shall physically die, but spiritually live forever'.

I'm calling you on this one because it's a blatant error. Where did God tell Adam that he would "spiritually die"? Death is death. The death God spoke of was physical... and spiritual. Both were atoned for by the slaughtering of a best to make coats of skins that covered their nakedness.

God said 'you will die'. The serpent said 'you will not die.'

Adam, the LIVING SOUL, was going to die, according to God. If Adam was a 'living soul' (the Bible says so), then the living soul was going to DIE, according to God. but the serpent said Adam, the LIVING SOUL, would NOT DIE. So, God says the soul will die, the serpent says the soul will not die.

Many are theologically incapable of thinking with categorical logic. Yes, a living being with intelligence and reason is a living soul. However, this doesn't discount the reality that the soul continues on after physical death. We must not fail to apply logical categorically... else you end up with a logical falacy predicated upon a false dichotomy, which is what you have.

What say you? Oh wait, you have already staked your claim! The soul lives on! The soul DOES NOT DIE!

Soul sleep is a doctrine of devils.

Adam and eve did not physically die the day... because God had mercy? hmmm... what did Jesus mean when he said 'let the dead bury the dead'?

I think that might open up an understanding on this subject for you.

Again, logical falacy due to a failure of applying categorical logic. You've bought into a false dichotomy.

Soul sleep is a doctrine of devils.

[Aquila]

Esaias, soul sleep is a lie from Hell and smells like smoke bro. I know it's error. God has revealed it to me through Scripture and personal experience. The soul continues on... even if you're afraid to admit that it does. If you want to believe that when we die it's "lights out"... be my guest. But false doctrine is false doctrine.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Most don't realize that Jonah actually died when cast into the sea. Here's Jonah's testimony (near death experience):

There is nothing in there that declares he actually DIED. This is the FIRST I have ever heard someone make this claim. Because if it's true, then Jonah was RESURRECTED, literally.

Besides, Jesus himself contradicts your claim, here, in the verse you quoted:

For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jesus identifies a similarity between His (then) future experience, and Jonah's. Three days and three nights. BUT HE ALSO MAKES A DISTINCTION - HE (Christ) was to be three days and nights in SHEOL (is that not what the HEART of the earth means?), whereas Jonah was NOT IN SHEOL but IN THE WHALE.

In Psalm 18:5, was David actually DEAD?

Besides, if jonah was actually DEAD, then you assert that DEAD PEOPLE CAN PRAY FOR DELIVERANCE.

The doctrine of soul sleep isn't biblical, it's a doctrine of devils.

The SERPENT said to the living SOUL, YOU SHALL NOT DIE. (see? I can repeat stuff, too).

We also read David's own testimony with regards to the departed child he had with Bathsheba,

2 Samuel 12:23
But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

David understood that his deceased son could return from the realm of the dead. However, David understood that upon death he, himself, would go to his son.

Friend, David affirmed 'he shall NOT RETURN TO ME', yet you say David "understood that his deceased son could return".

I really don't know what to say to that.

Soul sleep is a doctrine of devils.

The serpent said 'you shall not die', and he said it to a LIVING SOUL.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Many are theologically incapable of thinking with categorical logic. Yes, a living being with intelligence and reason is a living soul. However, this doesn't discount the reality that the soul continues on after physical death. We must not fail to apply logical categorically... else you end up with a logical falacy predicated upon a false dichotomy, which is what you have.

So, YOU say this:

A living being is a living soul.

You affirm that God said Adam (a living soul) was going to die.

Then you say 'the soul continues on after death.'

How does the soul live if it is dead? If the soul dies, then it does not continue to live.

Unless you are equivocating... which methinks ye might be.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Esaias, soul sleep is a lie from Hell and smells like smoke bro. I know it's error. God has revealed it to me through Scripture and personal experience. The soul continues on... even if you're afraid to admit that it does. If you want to believe that when we die it's "lights out"... be my guest. But false doctrine is false doctrine.

God has revealed to me through personal experience and Scripture that the immortal soul doctrine is false. The soul dies... even if you're afraid to admit that it does. If you want to believe that when we die we don't (applicable to ALL MANKIND)... be my guest.

But false doctrine is false doctrine.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Countless near death experiences wherein people are declared clinically dead and testify that they found themselves above their own bodies and watched staff take action to save their lives... noting the individuals present, what was said, procedures done, and even what responders wore... testifies that consciousness continues on after death. You're essentially calling all of these people liars.

A good does of ketamine will do EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

Also, neuroscientists have induced 'near death experiences' by electrical stimulation of the cortex during surgery. Replete with 'the Light', life passing before their eyes, departed loved ones, the whole nine yards.

You are also testifying against Scripture which clearly teaches that life goes on after death. Even Samuel was able to be aroused from His rest and consciously prophesied against Saul while disembodied.

Are you kidding me? A WITCH was able to drag Samuel's SOUL from hell? Seriously, you believe that?

Jesus testifies:

Luke 24:36-39 (KJV)
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Here the disciples were terrified, afraid that they were seeing Christ's "spirit" (ghost). Yet Jesus testifies that spirits don't have flesh and blood. They are disembodied realities.

Jesus did not affirm that the spirits of dead people could go walking around spooking houses. Jesus simply affirmed that HE WAS NOT A DISEMBODIED SPIRIT, not that disembodied spirits of the 'dearly departed' are wont to hang out with us.

Soul sleep is a doctrine of devils.

The immortal soul doctrine is a doctrine of THE Devil.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Esaias

God has revealed to me through personal experience and Scripture that the immortal soul doctrine is false. The soul dies... even if you're afraid to admit that it does. If you want to believe that when we die we don't (applicable to ALL MANKIND)... be my guest.

But false doctrine is false doctrine.

I would be interested in your personal experience if you care to share?