A Wrecked Church!

[Praxeas]

A local church here pulled out of the UPCI and several members I know were not even aware

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Rapture 1

They were in the ALJC for many years. The members didn't know they were out of it until shortly before the pastor died. A lawyer said the by-laws where not worth the paper they are written on. He also said everything "they are doing is illegal". This lawyer is a very well known and very busy lawyer, and is out of town a lot. He can't take the case, because he has left to go to WA, for some time, and we need someone now. Talking with another one, but you have to have a certain kind of lawyer.

Lawyers don't like to get mired down in church disputes. They can work themselves to the bone and the next thing they know someone had a prayer meeting and everything they worked for is forgiven and gone. Those are facts. OR the exact opposite they can work tirelessly and no one is made happy.
ANY bylaws can be voted out one meeting.

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by Rapture 1

The former late pastor did not give the mantle to the "local" preacher. The late pastor had been sick for quiet some time, some dementia even. This was his daughter's choice. He even said to the members that he did not think ***** was able to pastor a church. But, he always did what his daughter wanted.

And therein could be most of the problem, IMHO! Doing what his daughter wanted instead of following the leading of the Spirit! If we are not being led by the Spirit of GOD, then who? Disasterous!

Falla39

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Falla39

And therein could be most of the problem, IMHO! Doing what his daughter wanted instead of following the leading of the Spirit! If we are not being led by the Spirit of GOD, then who? Disasterous!

Falla39

But, to defend this minister he has been ill for a time and like Rapture said, even a touch of dementia.

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

But, to defend this minister he has been ill for a time and like Rapture said, even a touch of dementia.

But, he always did what his daughter wanted.

I was responding to the ALWAYS, I guess!

[ILG]

Originally Posted by CC1

I have a great heckling story. I was at a UPC revival in London England in 1977. (I don't want to give details of this story because I still have some portion of anonymity on here) and one night a young man and two young women probably in their early 20's showed up for the service.

During the preaching the young man began to heckle the UPC preacher visiting from the United States. Rather than kick the young man out or get angry the preacher (who is a really cool guy)used his sense of humor to respond directly back to the young man in a humorous but kind way.

This went on for a few minutes but eventually the young man shut up. Fast forward years later and after some big UPC meeting in the USA a man came up to this preacher and said "you don't know who I am do you?" To which my preacher friend replied no. The guy went on to say he was that young man who had heckled the preacher in London. He had been so moved by the message and the kind godly way this preacher handled his heckling that not too long after that meeting he gave his life to the Lord and became a Christian. Not an every day occurrence in London I assure you. When we were passing out fliers inviting people to that revival I had never met so many agnostic and atheist people in my life!

That's cool.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Rapture 1

I want everyone to continue to pray for the people of the "wrecked Church". They are in desperate need of prayer. These are spirit feeled, lovely, sweet, mostly older people of God. Pray, not just that they can keep their church, but for the healing of their souls, minds and health. People are saying this is gossip, but I'm telling you, it is the truth. Call some of the faithful warriors in the church and they will tell you. The truth needs to be told, so this can not happen anywhere else. People's souls are at risk, and life is too short, whe never know when our time will come. Some of these saints have been at this church since the beginning, 58 yrs ago, in an old small house. They have raised their children and grandchildren, and lost their husbands there. After working to build the church and going and being faithful all these years, they are told now that they do not have a say in anything. Only the men are allowed to vote, by invitation only, Monday night. Anyone that didn't receive an invitation will not be allowed on the property. Here goes:
The pastor, who everyone loved ,died. He had picked an assistant pastor of his daughter's choice, a good friend of hers. She would not let him put one of his family in. She would remind him that he promised. And, people did
hear this, each time. After he died, she had the church to vote on him as pastor, For several reasons they did not want him. Her, and him had a vote with the members anyway. They had everyone to put their names on the ballot. Even after throwing out some votes by her, he lost. Thy continued on as before. The majority of the people wrote a letter and signed a petition for a very well respected Bishop from MI to come and be the interium pastor. The daughter called him and threatened to sue if he came down. He backed off. Now, they have come up with a solution to put her friend in. They have sent out invitation only to the men to vote. They say they are going by the by-laws written in the 50's when the church was in an organization. One of the laws, are that the secretary has to be man. The daughter isn't a man, and has handled the books, and money, after leaving her job as RN many,many years ago.
Some of the members that have spoken out, have been sent letters informing them they are no longer allowed to be on the property. Some because they got up and left when a preacher was chastizing them. There are 4 members on the board. The board was appointed by the late pastor, never voted on by the church. The one trying to get voted on for pastor is on the board. One of the other, admits he has never had the Holy Ghost. No preacher will come in and take up for the saints. They say they don't want to get involved.
Like I said, they are heart broken, but are planning on leaving there, because of the leadership. They are going for the last time tomorrow. We need your prayers for strength. The bible says "In the last days the love of many will wax cold", and thats why they will treat the saints like they do.

Why did they have a vote on this preacher? Why did the board simply not appoint him? I am not finding any fault in what you wrote and not saying anything pro or con. I am just asking and wondering.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Sam

I know this is none of my business but what organization was this church in when it had those bylaws? If the bylaws are still valid and the person (daughter) who has taken over and is running things now is in violation of those bylaws, and there is now no higher organizational level they can appeal to, this may have to go into a secular court. People who have invested time and money in that building have something coming to them. If they are split into two groups, one group may have to buy the other out in order to retain use of the building. This may have gone as far as it can without outside legal intervention.

We had a situation here in Cincinnati with an ALJC church where one member asked to see the books. He wanted to know what some of the salaries were. When he requested this he was disfellowshipped and then told he could not see the books because he was no longer a member. He wound up going to court and the church had to give him he information he requested.

A church in a nearby city had a split over doctrine. Branhamism came in and some accepted it and some did not. It wound up going to civil court. One group got to keep the building but they had to pay the other group for their equity in the building.

I know this is going before secular courts but we're already involved with secular law the way we are organized with tax exempt status, etc.

I have a suggestion. When we were going through our issues, our by-laws stipulated that we use mediation to resolve issues rather than a secular court. There are mediation organizations. When we went to court for the first lawsuit, the judge threw the lawsuit out based on the need to go to arbitration based on our bylaws. (The people who filed the suit claimed we "refused to go" so they "had" to file). However, when we put up the funds and picked a couple of arbiters, we never heard from them again for months. Then, all of a sudden, they refiled the suit.

Anyway, there are other ways to resolve the issue than law. You can use an organization that does mediation and/or binding arbitration.

[ILG]

Since this church is most affiliated with the ALJC, perhaps some of the higher-ups (I shudder to say that, knowing my own situation....) could perhaps have a hearing as such over this situation. I personally think it would be better to get a jury of about 7 non-biased blue collar workers from an ALJC church and have a trial and a vote with an official simply presiding. This way it stays in the church and let both sides let the results be binding.

[Rapture 1]

The board did try to appoint him, and the majority of the people said no, so they finally agreed to a vote( the daughter and *****and the "board"), but he lost. If you weren't there you would never believe the scene the daughter and her friend made. As I said, tomorrow is most of the peoples last day, and they are leaving after Sunday School. The daughter has been calling some of them and asking for their tithes. I'm sorta glad it is coming to an end, so these good people can come together and worship without all this evil spirit in the church. I can remember over the years all the singing and shouting,and speaking in tongues, everyone loving one another. We used to have a great choir, and was asked to sing at other churches. A great time with great memories! I do not want these great people to get bitter and lose out because of about 20 people. We are all going to make it and be better people and christians as a result. The other one's, God have mercy, I wouldn't want to be in their place.