never thought of that; good point
Exactly. Scripture even says that one is a sinner "from their youth," not from birth. My personal feeling, T, just a guess, is that, like, predestination and free will existing side by side, there is some other concept operating here that just wouldn't make much sense to us.
Scripture isn't clear about it?
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
The doctrines of the age of account ability and original sin are both supported and neither contradicts the other. The age of accountability though never set as a definite age is shown in places like
Deuteronomy 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
Isaiah 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
Whereas the doctrine of original sin is shown in such places as
Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
They are compatible in that the one says we are born sinners not because we have sinned but because we are from a fallen sinful race and the other says we are not at the place to where we can as of yet be held accountable for our personal actions because we are not at a place where we can understand the concept of consepuences nor can tell the difference between right and wrong.
They are compatible in that the one says we are born sinners not because we have sinned but because we are from a fallen sinful race and the other says we are not at the place to where we can as of yet be held accountable for our personal actions because we are not at a place where we can understand the concept of consepuences nor can tell the difference between right and wrong.
I fully understand where you get the idea of original sin from what you posted... I just do not believe that God would be such a monster as to punish someone indefinitely for something an ancestor did...
But I do not see the age of accountability doctrine supported here at all... I get that a child does not know right from wrong to a certain point but I see NO WHERE that this scripture states that God would not punish a child with hell because of that fact. I believe it is simply our sense of justice that tells us that a God like that would be too horrible to contemplate... And that is exactly what leads me to believe that there is no literal hell... So for me it all makes perfect sense even is not supported by the scripture you have cited.
This passage of scripture may seem to not be in context with this discussion, yet I think there is a point being made here that is worthy to consider.
Read the parable in Luke 13:42-48 It is quite long, but take a minute and read it.
Ok. So, the servant which knew NOT his Lord's will and yet committed things worthy of stripes shall be beaten with few stripes. On the other hand, the servant who knew better, had been taught well, and still disobeyed, will be beaten with many stripes.
Then it says for whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him, they will ask the more.
So the question obviously here is... how did one servant know the will of his Lord, and the other not know? The point being made in this passage is that there is a sin of ignorance, for which there is a price to pay. Yet the price for ignorance or not possessing required knowledge is not as bad as knowing, and then not obeying.
Catch my drift?
So in the original post, regarding the age of accountability.... I think this passage actually addresses the multitudes of people across the span of thousands of years who knew the difference between right and wrong, because I believe that is what our conscience is... the knowledge between right and wrong. Yet millions have never heard the gospel taught in its fullness. They will receive some sort of reprimand on judgment day for their ignorance... yet not as great as those who HAVE received the knowledge, and discarded it.
The doctrines of the age of account ability and original sin are both supported and neither contradicts the other. The age of accountability though never set as a definite age is shown in places like
Deuteronomy 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
Isaiah 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
Whereas the doctrine of original sin is shown in such places as
Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
They are compatible in that the one says we are born sinners not because we have sinned but because we are from a fallen sinful race and the other says we are not at the place to where we can as of yet be held accountable for our personal actions because we are not at a place where we can understand the concept of consepuences nor can tell the difference between right and wrong.
also Psalm 58:3 seems to indicate sinners by birth
Even from birth the wicked go astray;
from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies. NIV
These wicked people are born sinners;
even from birth they have lied and gone their own way. NLT
The wicked are estranged from the womb;
They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies. NKJV
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Sam also known as Jim Ellis
Apostolic in doctrine
Pentecostal in experience
Charismatic in practice
Non-denominational in affiliation
Inter-denominational in fellowship
Deuteronomy 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
Isaiah 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
With these following verses:
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Then one can see that a child who does not have an understanding of right and wrong ( duet1:39, isa7:16) cannot have the law because the law is what shows us right from wrong ( rom7:7) and until the law is there to show right from wrong sin is not imputed ( rom5:13) because sin is a transgression of the law.
Just in case someone should mistaken me to be saying that this could apply to adults a brief reading of
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Deuteronomy 1:39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
Isaiah 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
With these following verses:
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Then one can see that a child who does not have an understanding of right and wrong ( duet1:39, isa7:16) cannot have the law because the law is what shows us right from wrong ( rom7:7) and until the law is there to show right from wrong sin is not imputed ( rom5:13) because sin is a transgression of the law.
Just in case someone should mistaken me to be saying that this could apply to adults a brief reading of
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Will show otherwise.
What you call tying together, I call cherry picking, sorry.
I don't know about your kids but mine could lie proficiently by age 4 to avoid trouble. They would also take things they knew were not thiers even though they knew it was wrong... what I'd call stealing. They were almost from birth selfish and covetess. All these things had to be trained out of them. Original sin is easy for me to see... I only disagree with eternal punishment for it.
Age of accountability... to vague. I know people who would have reached it by age 5 and others who are not there at 50... I still don't see it.
What do you say is 'the' age?
Last edited by Titus2woman; 10-11-2012 at 08:36 AM.
never thought of that; good point
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