A thought on tithing

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by seekerman

If Jesus came today He'd not recognize what folks call His 'church'. Tens of thousands of buildings promoted as 'church' sitting dark, dead and empty 99% of the time with hirelings accepting salaries and tithes to support this building-based Romanist religious system. Take the pay away from the hirelings and see how many will serve because of their alleged 'calling'.

Almost nothing remains which follows the pattern of the New Testament church either in organization or power. Simply look around you.

And a goodly portion of them have different statements of faith from their cookie cutter parent organization.

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Crops and herds in an agrarian was the currency. Do you get paid with crops and animals? You are paid with money that enables you to purchase food. Tithe is 10% of your increase, not income. I haven't read here anyone who says that if you don't tithe you go to hell. There are preachers who do and I don't agree with that.

Israel in the time of Christ was NOT a strictly barter economy. There are multiple verses, as well as written history, that show that money was a common form of currency. It is not accurrate to paint this picture of Israel int he time of CHrist as being a culture where they didn't use money and just offered services or crops/livestock for payment of things all the time. Therefore the idea that tithing was only in goods/livestock then but now it should be money only due to the change in common currency over time is not valid. Israelites could have easily paid the tithe in money, even back int he days of Abraham if they needed to, but the tithe given was simply NEVER meant to be money.

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Open and shut case.

Folks who resist generosity will fight this however. I believe it is extreme to say people go to hell for not tithing, I believe it's extreme to say it's not a NT principle. Those that argue hard against it I guarantee you aren't guilty of giving 10% or more away to any cause. The OT was about the law. The NT os about the heart. Where a man's treasure is there his heart will be. Arguing that we are all ministers (which I agree with) means that the tithe should not pay the pastor and staff and other employees is ridiculous.

Again there abuses for sure, but it doesn't negate the practice.

I have tithed faithfully since I got into church and was taught to do so. I do to this day, even though I think it is a terrible doctrine, because I understand the church needs money to pay the bills and that if I want a full time Pastor it is my responsibility to help pay for him to live. So you are incorrect in your assertion. I argue very hard against the lie of tithing and yet I always give more than 10% away to church and those I know who are in need.

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

The Matthew 23 argument that Elder E makes seems pretty clear cut. Jesus says you should tithe just as you should exercise mercy and judgment. And the argument that "this was still under the OT law" is the same argument used against using the Gospels for scriptures on salvation. You can't say that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are valid for salvation scriptures but not for NT instruction on lifestyle and Christian living.

http://truthforfree.com/html/article...matthew23.html

It is open and shut. Matthew 23 has NOTHING to do with the NT church. The whole crux of the chapter is pointing out how the Pharisees failed. It was yet another example of Christ showing where the letter of the law was not good enough. Using Matthew 23 for NT church is as foolish a theological exercise as trying to use Malachi 3. Both have NOTHING to do with NT saints.

[Timmy]

It's hopeless, you guys. Trying to argue with Steve Epley is like trying to argue with.... ummm..... Steve Epley!

[Nitehawk013]

This point was especially ponted considering how many Gentile Pastors preach this tithe debacle.

"In fact, Jesus could not have told Gentile Christians “These you ought to have done” because Gentiles were not allowed to bring tithes and tithes would not have been accepted even it they attempted to bring them! In order to be legitimate, tithes must only come from Israelites and only from inside Israel!"

WE cannot bring tithes even if the Law did still exist. If you argue we are grafted in and are "spiritual Israel" now...thats fine. Then we must bring ins aspiritual tithe, not a literal one. Bring on the monopoly money.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Open and shut case.

Folks who resist generosity will fight this however. I believe it is extreme to say people go to hell for not tithing, I believe it's extreme to say it's not a NT principle. Those that argue hard against it I guarantee you aren't guilty of giving 10% or more away to any cause. The OT was about the law. The NT os about the heart. Where a man's treasure is there his heart will be. Arguing that we are all ministers (which I agree with) means that the tithe should not pay the pastor and staff and other employees is ridiculous.

Again there abuses for sure, but it doesn't negate the practice.

But is it a sin not to tithe?

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

I have tithed faithfully since I got into church and was taught to do so. I do to this day, even though I think it is a terrible doctrine, because I understand the church needs money to pay the bills and that if I want a full time Pastor it is my responsibility to help pay for him to live. So you are incorrect in your assertion. I argue very hard against the lie of tithing and yet I always give more than 10% away to church and those I know who are in need.

No, the real church doesn't need your, or my, money to pay it's bills. Only the Romanist system with it's building-based system would need money to pay it's bills because it's a man made, building-based, 'pay-me-your-tithes' religious system with all the wordly trappings which come with a wordly system. The real church allows it's members to freely minister as they're called to minister in preaching, teaching and helps, to name a few. Only the Romanist system would promote the idea of a hireling paid to perform duties and responsibilities given to the whole church and place debt upon the people to support such an ungodly system.

The Romanist system has twisted the church into the 'church' and sadly most Christians follow this 'church' Romanist system, shirking their duties and callings, hiring others to do what they should be doing themselves.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Timmy

It's hopeless, you guys. Trying to argue with Steve Epley is like trying to argue with.... ummm..... Steve Epley!

Maybe so, but if he feels he is right, why should he back down? No one else is backing down with their views. Right?

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Crops and herds in an agrarian was the currency. Do you get paid with crops and animals? You are paid with money that enables you to purchase food. Tithe is 10% of your increase, not income. I haven't read here anyone who says that if you don't tithe you go to hell. There are preachers who do and I don't agree with that.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Now this is very true.

Deut 14 shows us that Tithing was STRICTLY for crops and animals. Only when the place of worship was too far away were the Israelites allowed to convert the tithe to CURRENCY.

And then when they got to their destination, they were to buy crops and animals with their currency and then they (ISRAELITES) were to eat their tithes while not neglecting the levites.

Deut 14
22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year.
23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the Lord your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the Lord your God always.
24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the Lord your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the Lord will choose to put his Name is so far away),
25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the Lord your God will choose.
26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice.
27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own.


Haing said that, I believe in supporting FINANCIALLY (and any other means) those who preach the gospel according to 1 Cor 9, but this has nothing to do with tithe.

1 Cor 9
11 If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you?
12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more?
13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar
14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

In verse 13, Paul was not alluding to tithing in the OT. He was alluding to the sin offerings and burnt offerings, which the levites ATE after they (the levites) had performed the work of the sanctuary.

Just like the levites were allowed to eat the remains of the animals after performing sin offering and burnt offerings (which was a ministerial work), even so the Lord has ordained they whic the gospel should live off the gospel.

When it came to sin offerings and burnt offerings, only the levites ate the meat.
Lev 7
7 “‘The same law applies to both the sin offering[a] and the guilt offering: They belong to the priest who makes atonement with them.
8 The priest who offers a burnt offering for anyone may keep its hide for himself.
9 Every grain offering baked in an oven or cooked in a pan or on a griddle belongs to the priest who offers it,
10 and every grain offering, whether mixed with olive oil or dry, belongs equally to all the sons of Aaron.

1 Cor 9:13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar


When it came to tithe, the ISRAELITES were supposed to EAT THEIR OWN TITHES while sharing with the levites. Big difference. Proves that Paul never taught about tithe.
Deut 14:23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the Lord your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the Lord your God always