Ephesians 4

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Ok Sam I'll bite,\

1. Exactly where does it say they are required? Paul tells us they are gifts, given to the church for the equiping (perfecting,complete furninshing)of the saints, for the work of the ministry, and the edifications of the church.

2. The point, Sam is not whether they are needful or benificial. The point is to what degree of authority do they have.

3. Are they to work within the body or without?

4. Notice they are not given to do the work of the ministry, they are given that we all are equiped,to do the work of mnistry. After all this passege addresses the saints to walk worthy of the vocation in which they are called.

my opinion:
1. They are part of the Body. They are "required" in that they are necessary parts of the body. They are body parts or organs that are required for the Body to work properly.

2. authority? that can be scary. Each ministry should mesh and gear with others. I would consider Peter and John to be big shots in the first century church leadership but they were "sent" to Samaria by the leaders in Jerusalem (Acts chapter 8) which indicates some sort of submission to me. Paul openly rebuked Peter at Antioch when Peter's actions were inconsistent with what he was preaching (Galatians 2:11-15). Paul and Barnabas are called Apostles but they were sent from the church in Antioch (Acts chapter 13) and Paul returned to that church after his first and second missionary journeys like it was his home base.

Another thing about authority, the elders/bishops/pastors (plural) are leaders (not bosses) in the local church. Notice how Peter talks about that in 1 Peter chapter 5). All are to submit to one another. None is to be a lord over God's heritage. A shepherd is the "boss" in that he is in charge and responsible for the care and well being of the sheep but he "serves" the every day and devoted his life to their care.

3. they are part of the Body and should work in the Body to the betterment and upbuilding or edification of the Body.

4. the ministries of Ephesians 3:11 (some say there are 5, some say there are 4) art to build up the saints so the saints can serve.

We were taught at the Apostolic Bible Institute (a UPC school) when I was there in 1956/1957 that there were only 12 apostles (Matthias was a mistake and God never considered him an apostle) and that there are no current prophets because that office ceased in the first century.