Ephesians 4

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by Sam

my opinion:
1. They are part of the Body. They are "required" in that they are necessary parts of the body. They are body parts or organs that are required for the Body to work properly.

2. authority? that can be scary. Each ministry should mesh and gear with others. I would consider Peter and John to be big shots in the first century church leadership but they were "sent" to Samaria by the leaders in Jerusalem (Acts chapter 8) which indicates some sort of submission to me. Paul openly rebuked Peter at Antioch when Peter's actions were inconsistent with what he was preaching (Galatians 2:11-15). Paul and Barnabas are called Apostles but they were sent from the church in Antioch (Acts chapter 13) and Paul returned to that church after his first and second missionary journeys like it was his home base.

Another thing about authority, the elders/bishops/pastors (plural) are leaders (not bosses) in the local church. Notice how Peter talks about that in 1 Peter chapter 5). All are to submit to one another. None is to be a lord over God's heritage. A shepherd is the "boss" in that he is in charge and responsible for the care and well being of the sheep but he "serves" the every day and devoted his life to their care.

3. they are part of the Body and should work in the Body to the betterment and upbuilding or edification of the Body.

4. the ministries of Ephesians 3:11 (some say there are 5, some say there are 4) art to build up the saints so the saints can serve.

We were taught at the Apostolic Bible Institute (a UPC school) when I was there in 1956/1957 that there were only 12 apostles (Matthias was a mistake and God never considered him an apostle) and that there are no current prophets because that office ceased in the first century.

Sam and Michael
I know Sam I believe you have been in ministry, by ministry I mean part of the group that holds themselves above the rest of the body. I carried license with UPCI for around 10 years. Although, I was active in ministry for about 20+ years as I started early in life. The point of this I worked in close contact with many, and worked under many. From the best to the worst, the one thing that was consistant. When the rubber met the road it all came down to this, the pastor always had the final say.

In essance he was the Lord of his own kingdom, that being HIS church. Let me change my wording, because I was party to this too. I held the same view point.

We set fences up, "standards of holiness, doctrines, plans of salvation" Anyone that did not line up to our dictates were rebelious and set for hell. It is and was not Christ church it was our church. Christ could not work through the body he had to work through the "pastor". Man teaches that the gift of an prophet is gone, man teaches that there are no longer apostles, scripture does not. These were and are still gifts within the body that should be at work within the body.

Lets look at the work of a pastor, the word pastor is lituraly "shephard" a shephard was not to fence in the sheep neither was he the boss. The shephard was yes in charge, in charge of protecting, leading the sheep to pasture. Never was the shephard to feed the sheep as we define feed the sheep. To feed meant to lead the sheep to pastures and clear water at which time the sheep were allowed to graze and drink as they chose.

The misinterpreting of Ephesians 4 thinking the ministry must perfect the sheep is a misconception. The word perfection is to furnish completly, again this was not the job of just the pastor, (shephard) but all the gifts. And again the gift of the pastor was to shephard, the sheep. I cannot say that enough as we need to understand the definition of shephard in those days.

The sheep were not to stay sheep, they were to grow into their own ministry, not neccesarily that of a pastor, as a pastor is a special breed as you and I know.

More to come.