To tithe or not to tithe?

[Jacob's Ladder]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

That tithing was practiced before the law of Moses is indisputable


We don't know what Abraham would have done but the fact that Jacob said he would tithe again proves it was before the Law


Tithing before the law is indisputable. Abraham and Jacob both did it and you've just admitted Jacob did

Praxeas,

I never claimed that Jacob tithed! Jacob only made a conditional vow. A conditional vow has a preceding requirement prior to the oath, giving terms and conditions that must occur before the vow becoming valid.

However, in the above post you stated that Jacob tithed. Can you please provide scripture demonstrating where Jacob tithed? Remember, you stated above that Jacob in fact tithed.

Be careful with your answer.

Regards,
Jacob’s Ladder

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Praxeas,

I never claimed that Jacob tithed! Jacob only made a conditional vow. A conditional vow has a preceding requirement prior to the oath, giving terms and conditions that must occur before the vow becoming valid.

However, in the above post you stated that Jacob tithed. Can you please provide scripture demonstrating where Jacob tithed? Remember, you stated above that Jacob in fact tithed.

Be careful with your answer.

Regards,
Jacob’s Ladder

If Jacob did not do as he promised then he lied. Are we to believe the faithful patriarchs were liars and lied to God and the bible does not mention it? Still this is again all irrelevent as my only point was tithing preceded the law and you brought up Jacob not me

[Jacob's Ladder]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Tithing before the law is indisputable. Abraham and Jacob both did it and you've just admitted Jacob did

Originally Posted by Praxeas

If Jacob did not do as he promised then he lied. Are we to believe the faithful patriarchs were liars and lied to God and the bible does not mention it? Still this is again all irrelevent as my only point was tithing preceded the law and you brought up Jacob not me

Praxeas,

Who said Jacob lied? Above you stated Jacob tithed. Please provide scripture showing where Jacob first tithed. Thanks.

Regards,
Jacob's Ladder

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Praxeas,

Who said Jacob lied? Above you stated Jacob tithed. Please provide scripture showing where Jacob first tithed. Thanks.

Regards,
Jacob's Ladder

If he did not tithe then he must have lied when he said he would tithe. Even you are questioning whether or not he tithed...

[Jacob's Ladder]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

If he did not tithe then he must have lied when he said he would tithe. Even you are questioning whether or not he tithed...

Well, please enlighten me. You claimed that Jacob tithed. Please provide scripture reaffirming your statement that Jacob tithed. The better question is, can you provide scripture where Jacob tithed? How can you claim Jacob tithed in your post when you can't provide proof?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Well, please enlighten me. You claimed that Jacob tithed. Please provide scripture reaffirming your statement that Jacob tithed. The better question is, can you provide scripture where Jacob tithed? How can you claim Jacob tithed in your post when you can't provide proof?

No the bible says Jacob said he would tithe. I simply believed Jacob...do you or was Jacob a liar?

Jacob said he would tithe if God became His God. Was Jacob a liar?

[Praxeas]

Was Jacob a liar?

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

Look, folks who defend the mandatory payment of tithing have to do so through a perversion of the scriptures, plain and simple. Abraham's tithe was voluntary, as was Jacob's. The tithe under the law applied only to agricultural goods, and not everyone tithed. There is no record of the tithe being commanded to believers in any way or form under the New Covenant, since we are now the Temple of God, priests unto our Lord, and in Christ no longer under the Levitical priesthood, but under the order of Melchizedek.

Now, if someone has had it laid on their heart to give a tenth, then so be it. As they give, I will worship with them. But, when people begin lying about people being robbers because they do not pay this tenth, that is when the problem comes in, big time!

It's now becoming a requirement to attend or belong to a church. Tithing money for protection, health, and whatever. Crazy!!!

[Jacob's Ladder]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

No the bible says Jacob said he would tithe. I simply believed Jacob...do you or was Jacob a liar?

Jacob said he would tithe if God became His God. Was Jacob a liar?

Praxeas,

I hope this clarifies to you and to anyone else reading these postings. Please ready carefully. Well, technically, Jacob was a liar and cheater, but not under this circumstance. However, Jacob, Abraham’s grandson, never tithed. Yet we read that tithing was Jacob’s third part of his vow unto god, in Genesis 28:20-21.

Which promises did God make unto Jacob? Genesis 28:13–15 gives details of god’s promises.

Genesis 28:13-15 reads:

13) There above it stood the LORD, and he said: “I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying.

14) Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring.

15) I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go, and I will bring you back to this land. I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you.”


A study will reveal that God’s message was nearly a replica to Abraham and Isaac’s promise. God’s promises entailed the promise land, and their seed being as dust of the Earth. Now, what did God promise unto Jacob?


Which were God’s promises to Jacob (Gen 28:13-15)?

1)I will watch over you wherever you go
2)I will bring you back to this land
3)I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying


Did God fulfill these promises? Yes. Jacob Labored in Padanaram for 20 years (Gen 31:41), and thereafter returned to his father’s house (Gen 35), while in fear of being murdered by Esau (Gen 33), Jacob’s brother. God kept promise 1 and 2. Let us skip over promise number 3 for right now and address Jacob’s vows.


What did Jacob vow to do if God kept his Promises?

1)The LORD will be my God
2)This stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God’s house
3)And of all that you give me I will give you a tenth


Did Jacob fulfill these promises? Jacob allowed the Lord to become his God and God changed his name to Israel (Gen 32:24). Jacob then set up a pillar as he vowed (Gen 35:14). Now let’s address God’s promises regarding giving Jacob and his descendants the land, and Jacob's vow of giving a tenth.


Jacob fulfilled two vows and God kept two promises. God protected Jacob and allowed him safe passage back to Canaan (God Fulfilled two promises), and Jacob made the Lord his God, and Jacob set up a pillar (Jacob fulfilled two promises)


Wait! Jacob didn’t give a tithe! Why? Because God had not yet fulfill the third promise.


Notice that Jacob was in Canaan, the land, and yet God had still not given the land to Jacob and his decendents. How do I know? After Jacob returned to Canaan, God told him in Genesis 32:12, “The land I gave to Abraham and Isaac I also give to you, and I will give this land to your descendants after you.”


The promise to Jacob about “I will give you this land to your descendants after you” was future tense. God told Jacob, I’m going to give you and your descendants the land, and Jacob had already returned to Canaan.


When did God give Jacob and his descendants the land? He gave it to them after wandering for forty years and corssing to Jordan.


Deuteronomy 11:31, “For ye shall pass over Jordan to go in to possess the land which the LORD your God giveth you, and ye shall possess it, and dwell therein.”


God’s third promise wasn’t fulfilled until after the Israelites went across the Jordan and inhabited Canaan. Only after God kept his third promise of “give to you, and I will give this land to your descendants,” it was then that Jacob's third vow became effective.

In Leviticus 27 we read where God requires a tithe, Jacob’s vow. The tithe was given to the tribe of Levi for their service. Jacob didn't tithe as God’s promises were never met in Jacob’s lifetime


Hebrews 11:13 states that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob Never received the promise

Hebrews 11:13
"All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised"

Jacob never tithed as God never kept His third promise in Jacob’s lifetime.

If you can prove otherwise, please provide scripture too.


Regards,
Jacob's Ladder

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Praxeas,

I hope this clarifies to you and to anyone else reading these postings. Please ready carefully. Well, technically, Jacob was a liar and cheater, but not under this circumstance. However, Jacob, Abraham’s grandson, never tithed. Yet we read that tithing was Jacob’s third part of his vow unto god, in Genesis 28:20-21.

Where does the bible say Jacob did not tithe?

What did Jacob vow to do if God kept his Promises?

1)The LORD will be my God
2)This stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God’s house
3)And of all that you give me I will give you a tenth


Did Jacob fulfill these promises? Jacob allowed the Lord to become his God and God changed his name to Israel (Gen 32:24). Jacob then set up a pillar as he vowed (Gen 35:14). Now let’s address God’s promises regarding giving Jacob and his descendants the land, and Jacob's vow of giving a tenth.


Jacob fulfilled two vows and God kept two promises. God protected Jacob and allowed him safe passage back to Canaan (God Fulfilled two promises), and Jacob made the Lord his God, and Jacob set up a pillar (Jacob fulfilled two promises)


Wait! Jacob didn’t give a tithe! Why? Because God had not yet fulfill the third promise.

Jacobs promise to serve God was not contingent on what God promised but what Jacob asked God to do...
Gen 28:20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat and clothing to wear,
Gen 28:21 so that I come again to my father's house in peace, then the LORD shall be my God,
Gen 28:22 and this stone, which I have set up for a pillar, shall be God's house. And of all that you give me I will give a full tenth to you."

Second God gave them that land the moment He promised it. God fulfilled His end of what He promised the moment He declared it.

Notice that Jacob was in Canaan, the land, and yet God had still not given the land to Jacob and his decendents. How do I know? After Jacob returned to Canaan, God told him in Genesis 32:12, “The land I gave to Abraham and Isaac I also give to you, and I will give this land to your descendants after you.”

See above. The land already belonged to Jacob and His decedents. God made that promise but as I pointed out that is irrelevant. Jacob did not vow "if and when I finally get the land and all my descendents then you will be my God..."...

Which would mean God is a liar when He said "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob"...because according to you God did not fulfill His promise so Jacob could not fulfill his vow

The promise to Jacob about “I will give you this land to your descendants after you” was future tense. God told Jacob, I’m going to give you and your descendants the land, and Jacob had already returned to Canaan.

has nothing to do with the vow

When did God give Jacob and his descendants the land? He gave it to them after wandering for forty years and corssing to Jordan.

He gave it the moment He declared it, but again that is irrelevant to the vow Jacob made

Deuteronomy 11:31, “For ye shall pass over Jordan to go in to possess the land which the LORD your God giveth you, and ye shall possess it, and dwell therein.”

God’s third promise wasn’t fulfilled until after the Israelites went across the Jordan and inhabited Canaan. Only after God kept his third promise of “give to you, and I will give this land to your descendants,” it was then that Jacob's third vow became effective.

When it was fulfilled is irrelevant. God gave them the land the moment He declared it and again has nothing to do with the vow

In Leviticus 27 we read where God requires a tithe, Jacob’s vow. The tithe was given to the tribe of Levi for their service. Jacob didn't tithe as God’s promises were never met in Jacob’s lifetime

Thus proving my point that tithing predates the law and is not constrained by the law. Thank you

You need to post that verse that says Jacob never tithed...BTW Why would he do the other parts of the vow if God did not fulfill His end of the agreement yet according to you? Why just tithing?

Hebrews 11:13 states that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob Never received the promise

Hebrews 11:13
"All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised"

Jacob never tithed as God never kept His third promise in Jacob’s lifetime.

If you can prove otherwise, please provide scripture too.


Regards,
Jacob's Ladder

Receiving and being given are not the same things