Do OPs have a grace problem?

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

I might argue that all that becomes moot, if one cannot apply Psalms 130 to others. Define 'Grace.' Now find God's def of Grace, which is not yours.

Proverbs 3:5-6 and 6 is grace realized and the only way it is realized.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

this is beyond laughable. Also goes to prove my point which I made before. It's not they don't teach "GRACE" but they don't teach YOUR VIEW of "GRACE." Which goes to what is "faith" and how a person defines "works" in relationship to initial salvation and unto discipleship. It is not YOUR "grace based theology." You can whine all you want about not conforming to some false doctrine and misuse of the word grace all you want. Your points are hollow.

I suggest you do whatever you think you need to do to be accepted by God. If it's having another man perform a work on your behalf in baptism, then by all means do it. If you believe that you have to work your way into heaven by a multiplicity of good deeds, then work your way into heaven.

But that's not biblical grace. And you'll always be a few works short.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

this is beyond laughable. Also goes to prove my point which I made before. It's not they don't teach "GRACE" but they don't teach YOUR VIEW of "GRACE." Which goes to what is "faith" and how a person defines "works" in relationship to initial salvation and unto discipleship. It is not YOUR "grace based theology." You can whine all you want about not conforming to some false doctrine and misuse of the word grace all you want. Your points are hollow.

Grace - unmerited favor or a manifestation of favor, especially by a superior.
Unmerited - Not merited or deserved
Favor - An attitude of approval or liking. Or, Feel or show approval. Or even, support, grace - kindness.

Works - Activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.

Based on these definitions from Webster's online dictionary, I think it's pretty clear to deterime what Grace is & what works are. The moment there is a list of 'things' one has to do to make it to heaven, i.e. wear skirts, not have a TV, not curse, not cut hair, not wear shorts, etc, it is abundantly clear that has crossed out of the GRACE spectrum and is now residing in the WORKS world.

Grace, as you have described is the "purpose or result" of the works that have been accomplised. That isn't Grace. Grace isn't getting a pay check for working a 40 hour work week. Grace is getting paid when you haven't even started the job! Grace isn't getting what you deserve for your actions. Grace is getting what you DO NOT deserve regardless of ones actions. Grace is bigger than works & exists outside of works altogether.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Take it up with Jesus. He obviously did not consider it to be "salvation by works" or not "grace based" or he would not have said it. However, you still are guilty of totally misrepresenting the sermon I linked, and that is a fact.

I see you're still miffed because I didn't view the sermon you linked as a grace-based sermon. That's because it wasn't. It was just another typical three-stepper sermon which is a works-based salvation theology of works, works and more works.

If you don't think that requiring some other man to perform a work on your behalf isn't a work based salvation theology then you're sadly mistaken. What would be a work if that's not a work? It's definitely not grace.

[Aquila]

Here's the way I see it...

1. Election (God's choice of people to be saved according to foreknowledge)

2. Atonement (Christ's work of satisfying the law for the Elect)

3. Propitiation (Christ's satisfying God's wrath against the sins of the Elect - past, present, future)

4. The Gospel call (the call of the Gospel, both outer and inner, to believe and be saved)

5. Conversion (faith, repentance, & water baptism)

6. Justification (right legal standing)

7. Regeneration (being born again of the Spirit/baptism of the Holy Ghost)

8. Adoption (membership in God's family by the Spirit)

9. Sanctification (the process of becoming increasingly Christlike)

10. Perseverance (remaining a Christian)

11. Death (going to be with the Lord)

12. Glorification (receiving a resurrection body in sinless perfection)

And we partake in this great salvation by God's grace.

It seems like Apostolics get into big debates about repentance and baptism as though they are all that is to salvation... but repentance & baptism is only ONE aspect of salvation, Conversion.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Jack Shephard

Grace - unmerited favor or a manifestation of favor, especially by a superior.
Unmerited - Not merited or deserved
Favor - An attitude of approval or liking. Or, Feel or show approval. Or even, support, grace - kindness.

Works - Activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.

Based on these definitions from Webster's online dictionary, I think it's pretty clear to deterime what Grace is & what works are. The moment there is a list of 'things' one has to do to make it to heaven, i.e. wear skirts, not have a TV, not curse, not cut hair, not wear shorts, etc, it is abundantly clear that has crossed out of the GRACE spectrum and is now residing in the WORKS world.

just by you using Websters you have already failed. Thanks!

Grace, as you have described is the "purpose or result" of the works that have been accomplised. That isn't Grace. Grace isn't getting a pay check for working a 40 hour work week. Grace is getting paid when you haven't even started the job! Grace isn't getting what you deserve for your actions. Grace is getting what you DO NOT deserve regardless of ones actions. Grace is bigger than works & exists outside of works altogether.

no... you don't deserve grace REACTIONLESS! God only gives grace to those who TURN and TRUST in the context of what his message is. You get grace BECAUSE OF YOUR RESPONSE. You cannot receive the provision of grace unless you respond properly to the message. You don't just simply receive grace.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by seekerman

I suggest you do whatever you think you need to do to be accepted by God. If it's having another man perform a work on your behalf in baptism, then by all means do it. If you believe that you have to work your way into heaven by a multiplicity of good deeds, then work your way into heaven.

But that's not biblical grace. And you'll always be a few works short.

Thanks again for the strawman. Do you believe in OSAS?

Also was ABraham short a few works to receive the promise that was given him?

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Thanks again for the strawman. Do you believe in OSAS?

Also was ABraham short a few works to receive the promise that was given him?

Yes, I believe in the eternal security of the believer, once saved always saved.

Abraham isn't saved by works. Abraham isn't saved by seeking and getting the Holy Ghost nor is He saved by the works of another man performed in the baptism ritual. Abraham is redeemed just like you and me, by the blood of the Lamb of God. Abraham will be lifting his voice in song with us......

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by seekerman

I see you're still miffed because I didn't view the sermon you linked as a grace-based sermon. That's because it wasn't. It was just another typical three-stepper sermon which is a works-based salvation theology of works, works and more works.

If you don't think that requiring some other man to perform a work on your behalf isn't a work based salvation theology then you're sadly mistaken. What would be a work if that's not a work? It's definitely not grace.

Thankfully, anyone who wants to listen to the message can do so and see how twisted, pre-planned, and biased your interpretation of it was. Teaching people to rest in their faith and not try to strive to earn God's favor certainly is NOT a "works" based salvation.

Furthermore, I'd like to know what you would have said to Jesus if you had been standing there when he spoke the words that are found in Mark 16:16. Burying the old man with Christ is ANYTHING but an attmpt to earn anything from God. By your definition then, repentance itself is "works based salvation".

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Yes, I believe in the eternal security of the believer, once saved always saved.

Thanks for your answer. I appreceiate that.

Abraham isn't saved by works.

When was Abraham saved?

Abraham isn't saved by seeking and getting the Holy Ghost nor is He saved by the works of another man performed in the baptism ritual.

Abraham was not under out covenant but before the new birth. He was saved and received the promise because he fullfilled the calling God gave him to do. Which was his message for his time while still the same construct we all must realize. Trust unto OBEDIENCE of God's Word.

Abraham is redeemed just like you and me, by the blood of the Lamb of God. Abraham will be lifting his voice in song with us......

yeah but that is contextual on how one views the reality of that.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

and anyone argues against this?