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  #111  
Old 04-02-2013, 11:55 AM
LUKE2447 LUKE2447 is offline
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Re: Do OPs have a grace problem?

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Originally Posted by seekerman View Post
My view is very simple, Abraham was redeemed by the Lamb of God apart from any series of good works that he did. Abraham enjoyed the truth of scripture that by grace are you saved, not of works, least any man should boast.

The blood redeemed Abraham, not one single work that He did redeemed him.
you are all over the place and making strawman points especially with your last sentence.

So do you believe in universalism? At some point something had to set Abraham apart to receive God grace and mercy.
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  #112  
Old 04-02-2013, 11:57 AM
LUKE2447 LUKE2447 is offline
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Re: Do OPs have a grace problem?

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Originally Posted by seekerman View Post
I don't know about 'just', but I do know that he was redeemed by the blood of the Lamb without works. But if he was redeemed because of his works, I can't identify with of the good works of Abraham made him acceptable enough to be redeemed by the Lamb of God.

Scripture is clear on why he was justified and how before God. find it amazing you cannot point out why he was considered right before God to receive his promises. Probably because it goes against your OSAS theology.
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  #113  
Old 04-02-2013, 12:02 PM
seekerman seekerman is offline
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Re: Do OPs have a grace problem?

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Originally Posted by LUKE2447 View Post
you are all over the place and making strawman points especially with your last sentence.

So do you believe in universalism? At some point something had to set Abraham apart to receive God grace and mercy.
I'm not sure about universalism. I see the argument for universalism but on the other hand I also see the argument for calvinism. At this point, I guess I'm leaning more toward calvinism.

God chose Abraham, Abraham responded to God, not a single work that Abraham did resulted in God saying, you know, Abraham has performed enough works for me to redeem him so I'll allow him to be redeemed by the Lamb of God. No, Abraham responded positively to God's call, that's all which was needed for the blood of the Lamb of God to redeem him.
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  #114  
Old 04-02-2013, 12:04 PM
seekerman seekerman is offline
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Re: Do OPs have a grace problem?

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Originally Posted by LUKE2447 View Post
Scripture is clear on why he was justified and how before God. find it amazing you cannot point out why he was considered right before God to receive his promises. Probably because it goes against your OSAS theology.
Ok, point out what work Abraham performed that pushed him over the edge, so to speak. What finally made God decide that Abraham was good enough, worked enough, to deserve redemption by the blood of the Lamb of God?
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  #115  
Old 04-02-2013, 12:17 PM
LUKE2447 LUKE2447 is offline
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Re: Do OPs have a grace problem?

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Originally Posted by seekerman View Post
I'm not sure about universalism. I see the argument for universalism but on the other hand I also see the argument for calvinism. At this point, I guess I'm leaning more toward calvinism.

God chose Abraham, Abraham responded to God, not a single work that Abraham did resulted in God saying, you know, Abraham has performed enough works for me to redeem him so I'll allow him to be redeemed by the Lamb of God. No, Abraham responded positively to God's call, that's all which was needed for the blood of the Lamb of God to redeem him.
hmmm he responded. Seems like a work to me.
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  #116  
Old 04-02-2013, 12:23 PM
seekerman seekerman is offline
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Re: Do OPs have a grace problem?

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Originally Posted by LUKE2447 View Post
hmmm he responded. Seems like a work to me.
Accepting God's call isn't a work.
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  #117  
Old 04-02-2013, 12:34 PM
LUKE2447 LUKE2447 is offline
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Re: Do OPs have a grace problem?

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Originally Posted by seekerman View Post
Ok, point out what work Abraham performed that pushed him over the edge, so to speak. What finally made God decide that Abraham was good enough, worked enough, to deserve redemption by the blood of the Lamb of God?

Obviously God knew Abraham from well before GEn 12 and his lineage and saw him for who he was. We see the story God telling ABraham what to do in Gen 12. Obviously they already had a relationship. I do know this. Abraham responded appropriately to What God said and was just before God when he spoke to him in Gen 15 already.

Gen 15:6 is simply a narrative comment by the writer Moses telling the story of what would happen in that "he believed.... and God considered "it" which is his faith to him as "righteousness". So it was the "faith" that was righteous that God considered and judged. We see this in Paul in Roman 4 that "believed" is not about a single point in time but that of view of what happened in Abrams life. As Pauls references Gen 17 which was many years later that he said

Rom 4:19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb.
Rom 4:20 No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God,
Rom 4:21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.
Rom 4:22 That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness."

God consideration was his life and the response of ABraham. James clearly teaches the justification of ABRAHAM was FULFILLED at the offering of Isaac.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"—and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Not faith but CONTEXT of response TO THE FAITH GIVEN. How do we know ABraham received the promises of God promised and why?

Gen 26:4 I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands. And in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed,
Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Was James right? Yep!

Gen 22:12 He said, "Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me."
Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son.
Gen 22:14 So Abraham called the name of that place, "The LORD will provide"; as it is said to this day, "On the mount of the LORD it shall be provided."
Gen 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven
Gen 22:16 and said, "By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,
Gen 22:17 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies,
Gen 22:18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice."

Last edited by LUKE2447; 04-02-2013 at 12:42 PM.
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  #118  
Old 04-02-2013, 12:35 PM
LUKE2447 LUKE2447 is offline
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Re: Do OPs have a grace problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerman View Post
Accepting God's call isn't a work.
sure it is.... because accepting is a matter of context. There is not accepting without the context being realized. It's not to the mental assent but to the doers of the context.
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  #119  
Old 04-02-2013, 12:37 PM
LUKE2447 LUKE2447 is offline
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Re: Do OPs have a grace problem?

you can't accept a call of come and follow me without following.
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  #120  
Old 04-02-2013, 12:42 PM
seekerman seekerman is offline
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Re: Do OPs have a grace problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LUKE2447 View Post
Obviously God knew Abraham from well before GEn 12 and his lineage and saw him for who he was. We see the story God telling ABraham what to do in Gen 12. Obviously they already had a relationship. I do know this. Abraham responded appropriately to What God said and was just before God when he spoke to him in Gen 15 already.

Gen 15:6 is simply a narrative comment by the writer Moses telling the story of what would happen in that "he believed.... and God considered "it" which is his faith to him as "righteousness". So it was the "faith" that was righteous that God considered and judged. We see this in Paul in Roman 4 that "believed" is not about a single point in time but that Abrams life. As Pauls references Gen 17 which was many years later that he said

Rom 4:19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb.
Rom 4:20 No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God,
Rom 4:21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.
Rom 4:22 That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness."

God consideration was his life and the response of ABraham. James clearly teaches the justification of ABRAHAM was FULFILLED at the offering of Isaac.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"—and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Not faith but CONTEXT of response TO THE FAITH GIVEN. How do we know ABraham received the promises of God promised and why?

Gen 26:4 I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands. And in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed,
Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

Was James right? Yep!

Gen 22:12 He said, "Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me."
Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son.
Gen 22:14 So Abraham called the name of that place, "The LORD will provide"; as it is said to this day, "On the mount of the LORD it shall be provided."
Gen 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven
Gen 22:16 and said, "By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,
Gen 22:17 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies,
Gen 22:18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice."
Luke, I know you put a lot of thought and effort into the response but I couldn't follow it. I think you're suggesting that Abraham's life of works is what eventually caused enough righteousness so that the blood of the Lamb of God would redeem him? Maybe when he was going to offer Issac? I'm just not sure from reading your post.

I don't agree with that if that's what you're suggesting.
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