And In That Day Ye Shall Ask Me Nothing...

[Praxeas]

I just want to repeat I NEVER once suggested Father and Son were the same thing or same role.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I just want to repeat I NEVER once suggested Father and Son were the same thing or same role.

No, I know you did not. I never said you did. But I am saying that in the instances of John 14 and John 16, I do not think it is speaking of the Person being synonymous in reference to the Name. I think it is speaking of the role of the Son being considered our "position". In those chapters, IN THE NAME means in the position as the Son.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No, I know you did not. I never said you did. But I am saying that in the instances of John 14 and John 16, I do not think it is speaking of the Person being synonymous in reference to the Name. I think it is speaking of the role of the Son being considered our "position". In those chapters, IN THE NAME means in the position as the Son.

I believe Jesus was trying to make it clear to the disciples, that because of His advocacy, we now have access to God. Personal relationship, intimacy, "...because the the Father also loves us..." thru His Name and because of His work of Calvary. "Father, I come to you in Jesus Name......" My father taught his children and those he pastored this very thing.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No, I know you did not. I never said you did. But I am saying that in the instances of John 14 and John 16, I do not think it is speaking of the Person being synonymous in reference to the Name. I think it is speaking of the role of the Son being considered our "position". In those chapters, IN THE NAME means in the position as the Son.

Well also consider that the context here is future
Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Note that in the verses we are discussing Jesus says he will show them of the Father plainly
Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Note this is exactly what Jesus said of the Holy Spirit
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
Joh 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. The verses in question, we are discussing really starts in this chapter
Joh 14:13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Notice ask in my name, I WILL do it so that the Father is glorified...how does the Father get the glory if it's in the Son's name and the Son is doing the answering to prayer? Well other translations render the next verse as
Joh 14:14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.
Joh 14:14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. (see above, remember this is all the same discourse and the topic here is future tense)
Joh 14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, This is future still, but notice Jesus here is saying he WILL ask the Father, but later on Jesus is saying he won't pray the Father
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
Joh 14:18 "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
Joh 14:20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

Father and Son are the same hypostatically, praying to Jesus then or in Jesus name is to pray TO that one person. Praying TO Him is in essence a prayer to both Father and Son. A prayer to the Father is in essence also a prayer to the Son, there is an existential difference and an difference with the Human nature, but hypostatically they are the same.

Still I might be wrong, but the way Jesus speaks here is enigmatic as proven by his saying he had been speaking in proverbs up until now

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by crakjak

I believe Jesus was trying to make it clear to the disciples, that because of His advocacy, we now have access to God. Personal relationship, intimacy, "...because the the Father also loves us..." thru His Name and because of His work of Calvary. "Father, I come to you in Jesus Name......" My father taught his children and those he pastored this very thing.

EXACTLY!! All due to the cross that made the entire differences noted in these chapters.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by mfblume

EXACTLY!! All due to the cross that made the entire differences noted in these chapters.

Amen, Brother.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Well also consider that the context here is future
Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Note that in the verses we are discussing Jesus says he will show them of the Father plainly

Correct. In the church age, though, beginning in Acts. I think.

Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Note this is exactly what Jesus said of the Holy Spirit
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
Joh 14:12 "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. The verses in question, we are discussing really starts in this chapter
Joh 14:13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. Notice ask in my name, I WILL do it so that the Father is glorified...how does the Father get the glory if it's in the Son's name and the Son is doing the answering to prayer?

The Father is glorified because the Son just said he could nothing without the Father in Him doing it.

Joh 14:10 KJV Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Joh 5:19 KJV Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Joh 8:28 KJV Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Well other translations render the next verse as
Joh 14:14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.
Joh 14:14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. (see above, remember this is all the same discourse and the topic here is future tense)
Joh 14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, This is future still, but notice Jesus here is saying he WILL ask the Father, but later on Jesus is saying he won't pray the Father
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
Joh 14:18 "I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
Joh 14:20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

Father and Son are the same hypostatically, praying to Jesus then or in Jesus name is to pray TO that one person.

Correct. But what we can only conclude is that 14:14 is speaking in regards to PERSON and 16:23 is in regards to offices and not person.

Praying TO Him is in essence a prayer to both Father and Son.

I cannot agree there, since 16:23 does exist in context of speaking of OUR position as Christ in His name.

A prayer to the Father is in essence also a prayer to the Son, there is an existential difference and an difference with the Human nature, but hypostatically they are the same.

True. But I think we might miss the thought of OUR proxy position in Christ.

Still I might be wrong, but the way Jesus speaks here is enigmatic as proven by his saying he had been speaking in proverbs up until now

I think Romans, for instance, explains it all. Proxy position in Christ's name. Really, I've come to learn the work of the cross is involved in more of these conversations than we have thought. Everything focuses on the cross. I strongly think that was the case with John 14:1-3 and not a future time after the resurection or about the afterlife.

Parables are meant to be enigmatic for unbelievers, true. But ironically they enhance a truth to the believer. So I think we need to focus on what is in many cases the commentaries of the Gospels, namely the epistles.

Anyway, thanks for your good thoughts.

[Praxeas]

You're welcome :-)

[Praxeas]

Something else, more important than what direction our prayers take. More important than direction is relationship. Notice in the "Lords Prayer" Jesus did not say "the Father", even though Iron_Bladder insists 'God the Father" is the only way the Father can be called Father as per his argument on Isaiah 9:6. He said OUR Father. Because Father, unlike our little friend here, is NOT a meaningless name. It's an adjective that describes His relationship to us. I don't have to say "Father" over and over to be praying to the Father as much so as what I need to do is realize that He really wants to be my Father in a father-son relationship

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Father and Son are the same hypostatically, praying to Jesus then or in Jesus name is to pray TO that one person. Praying TO Him is in essence a prayer to both Father and Son.

How can that be when Christ mediates between us and the Father? Just as the Holy Spirit also mediates between us and the Father at Romans 8:26, how would you explain these problems Praxeas?