Quote:
Originally Posted by Livelystone
It is not a case that sin brightens the picture but because evil took on sin that resulted in evil being sentenced to death. The whole time the seed of the serpent is consuming the dust of the earth that makes up our physical bodies, the thorn in our flesh that is Satan's messenger in us aka the law of sin is already self-destructing. This is the beauty within God's plan; because evil already had to exist in the spiritual realm, but then when it appeared in the physical realm, by becoming sin it was sentenced to death.
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Are you trying to tie the heretical doctrine of the serpent and eve doing things that resulted in the serpent seed into the correct and biblical doctrine of original sin which states that in adam we all fell?
No where does the Bible ever say that the thorn in Pauls flesh was the law of sin. If you will remember Paul says in in
Romans 8:2 that he was made free from the law of sin. How then in light of romans 8:2 can you say that the thorn in Paul's flesh that he prayed for God to remove and God rather than freeing Paul from the thorn gave him the grace to bear it? Did Paul call God a liar by saying God freed him from the law of sin while God said the thorn remained, or are the law of sin and the thorn two different things?
Also you are supposeing that evil eisted before the creation of the earth and for this there is no biblical support.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livelystone
The commandment given to Adam was if they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was that day they would surely die. They died physically that day because they did not live out the 1000 years that is the day. They also died spiritually that day by being separated from God because of their sin that took on death and separation from God.
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Where do you get they were to live for a thousand years?
They died physically in that they lost thier immortality or to put it more simply they became suseptible to death.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livelystone
While on one hand death is a result of sin; the death that is a result of sin brings forth more sin because once one leaves the presence of God that is the only thing that can withhold sin, sin rules over them. Therefore, the sting of death is sin because once we are separated from God we are in a state of death and there is nothing left to withhold sin.
However even when sin continues unchecked in its cancerous assault on humans it is self-destructing because the only place it can exist is in the unclean spirit and soul of Adam and Eve who became one flesh.
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I agree that man became separated from God In that they became sinners but to say that this is the only death that is the result of sin sounds like you are saying that God created man to die.
Sin is not self destructing at all it is doing its job which is to carry out satans plan to kill steal and destroy.
What did you mean by this statement "
is in the unclean spirit and soul of Adam and Eve who became one flesh" ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livelystone
Because as the Scriptures say before the foundations of the earth were laid the morning stars jumped for joy, there was a plan made for evil to be destroyed (learning to hate evil is part of the beginning of wisdom). In the begining Adam could not sin because both he, and God who cannot sin, were both of the same Spirit. The statement in the verse saying they communed in the cool of the day translated means they communed in the spirit because the same spirit that gave Adam life from the breath of God was the spirit of God.
As long as the Spirit of God was in charge in Adam, he could not sin. Therefore there had to be a change made that would allow Adam to sin that is something he was not capable of doing when first created.
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The bible does not say that "before the foundations of the earth were laid the morning stars jumped for joy."
But what it does say is:
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
You are coming very close to making Adam into a God by saying that he and God were of the same Spirit, and what on earth do you mean by saying that God was of any Spirit? God was and is eternal the causeless first cause who came from nowhere and is going nowere but fills everywhere. No one or nothing made God and God did not originate from anywhere God has simply always been.
Please show me the verse that says adam could not sin in the beginnig.
Adam was not created to sin and he was not created sinful rather Adam was created with the ability to choose to sin and was thus a free moral agent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livelystone
This is where the phrase "made subject to vanity" comes into play that when translated means Adam was altered so that he could not perform as he had been originally created to perform.
Romans 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
The above verse speaks of when God changed Adam that made Adam's sin a foregone conclusion, and not a matter of if but a matter of when. |
No the verse you are speaking of has nothing whatsoever to do with any change happening to adam so that he would sin. Please explain to me useing the context of the scripture cited how this verse has anything to do with a change being made in adam?
You are again makeing God the author of sin and blameing all the sin on earth both past and present on God. That is blasphemous!!!!
God is holy, just and pure but you make Him out to be the originator of sin!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livelystone
This happened when God caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam and a bone was taken from him that was used to form Eve. To try to shorten this long story a little bit I'm going to hope that this point you can see that at this point the flesh of Adam was given a mind and a voice of its own that is something that was not coming from Adam before he sinned, because before Eve, Adam only followed the mind of Christ he was first created with that could not sin.
However when Adam followed the voice of Eve who that was taken from his flesh that used the senses within the flesh to determine what was good or bad, instead of continuing on with following the commandment of God, Adam deliberately made a decision contrary to the commandment of God, therefore sin and death entered into all of mankind
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So you are basicly saying that before EVE was made that Adam could not sin?
(Have you told your wife About this doctrine lol
)
The Bible says that:
Gen.2:18 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
The reasons that the Bible gives for Eve being made was because it was not good for man to be alone and to be a helpmeet for adam. Where do you get that this gave adam the ability to sin? How can God call her a helpmeet if she is going to cause the destruction of him?
Also to say that adam could not sin before Eve was made is to throw out the verses that proceed her forming.
Gen.2:15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The command was given before woman so the possibility to sin existed before woman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livelystone
However, his decision resulted in evil becoming sin that got it sentenced to death. Consequently, and for the first time since both good and evil were both created by God,( Isaiah 45:7) evil started to destroy itself.
The plan was/is absolutely brilliant and only God in heaven could ever come up with such a plan (why the morning stars, aka sons of God jumped for joy; Job 38:7 ) let alone put it into effect (or as the verse above says, "subject the same unto hope) |
The verese in
Isaiah 45:7 is not saying that God created sin all that one has to do is read the verses around it to see that the evil that is here spoken of is war not sin. This is speaking of the invasion of babylon by the medes and the persians. The evil here is being contrasted by peace not righteousness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Livelystone
God has accepted responsibility for man's sin and is why He appeared on earth in human form to suffer and die for us. We can deal with what hell is all about at a later time, meanwhile if you would do a search on the times the word "hell" appears in Psalms and how it is used will help.
Blessings
Doug
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Where on earth does the Bible ever say that God was responsible for mans sin or where does it every say that God said it was all His fault?
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