What did Jesus Come to Save us From?

[renee819]

Originally Posted by bishoph

If this is true.......why weren't the believers in Samaria indwelt until AFTER the apostles laid their hands on them?

Acts 8:12-17 (NLT) But now the people believed Philip’s message of Good News concerning the Kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ. As a result, many men and women were baptized. 13 Then Simon himself believed and was baptized. He began following Philip wherever he went, and he was amazed by the signs and great miracles Philip performed.
14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that the people of Samaria had accepted God’s message, they sent Peter and John there. 15 As soon as they arrived, they prayed for these new believers to receive the Holy Spirit. 16 The Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them, for they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John laid their hands upon these believers, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Right! Bishop. Also the 120 Believers at Pentcost. Of course they couldn;t receive until the Holy Ghost was sent down, however, if it came automatically they didn't need the evidence of speaking in other tongues.

And the Ephesians were Believers, but did not receive the Holy Ghost automatically.

There are millions of BELIEVERS in the world today that need to be baptized right, which is in the name of Jesus, and receive the Holy Ghost. But if wishy-washy Pentecostals, pat them on the back, and tell them, "it does not matter," hw will they ever be saved?

[Dichotomy Girl]

Originally Posted by renee819

D Girl,

Jesus came to send the Holy Ghost down, in order that we can be 'born again. Why do we need to be 'born again? Why do we need to be 'redeemed? Redeemed from who? Or what?

Ever since Adam, every baby born, was born into sin that Satan placed on this earth, therefore Jesus came to 'REDEEM' us from being a child of Satan. Every baby born, is a child of Satan, therefore they don't have to do anything to go the the Lake of Fire.

John 8:44 (KJV)
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Jesus wasn't just singling out the Jews. We are all children of the Devil until born again. And when 'born again, then we have God's 'divine nature' inside of us.

Originally Posted by Timmy

Not believing this is why I don't hate God.

I agree with you Timmy, but I really appreciate Renee answering the question clearly and forthrightly

[Dichotomy Girl]

Originally Posted by n david

It helps looking at the context of which I was responding to; it wasn't the initial post, but the subsequent post I was commenting on.

Hebrews 11 says "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.....Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." The writer of Hebrews let it be known that it takes faith to understand, and then used the first verse of the first book of the Bible as an example. The reason I said "in order to understand" is because if you don't have faith or believe in the Word of God as being authoritative, you cannot understand the simple matter of creation, much less the plan of salvation.


It's not because your doctrine or theology differs from mine; it's because you have stated you do not believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God, but merely a nice collection of writings. How can anyone truly understand spiritual matters if they don't believe in the Bible. It's impossible.


The difference is, in the majority of cases, they still believe the Bible is the word of God. Especially with regards to various denominations and debates over scripture.


I never said the discussion was pointless; those are your words, not mine.

Originally Posted by Timmy

But discussion is pointless, if you are unable to help her understand it. But sure, if your advice is first for her to "believe the Bible is the Word of God", and then she will understand (not that I agree that that is the correct word, as opposed to "agree" ), sure. I suppose that if she takes that advice, discussion would be less "pointless". But unnecessary, perhaps?

Interesting, isn't it, how there is still so much disagreement and arguing even among people who do accept the Bible as the Word of God, and do have the Holy Spirit leading them into all truth? (Way more so than among those who don't, I'd say! )

So I was thinking about this discussion this morning as I was getting ready for work, and I kept thinking of the story of Jesus healing the blind man, and the Blind man getting questioned by the Pharisees, and how they were trying to prove that Jesus was a sinner, because he didn't follow their rules. And they would question the man, and he would give his opinion, and they would continue to investigate because this miracle didn't fit into their paradigm. And finally the man said "Whether he is a sinner or not, I don’t know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!”

Just because I do not always take the Bible literally (i.e. I do not approach it as a rule book or instruction manual), does not mean that I think it contains spiritual truths.

As for the creation story I will borrow this thought from Rob Bell...which is more important that it happened or that it Happens? Jesus spoke in parables for a reason. I don't think that the practice started with Him. But for the record I do believe that the Universe was created by God. And I do believe in the Word in the John 1 kind of way...in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God....and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us...and that Word was crucified and resurrected and now dwells inside me.

[larrylyates]

It's pretty simple really.

Regardless of how one feels or thinks about the issue, nonetheless:

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jesus means Jehovah-Saviour.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Jesus Christ came to save us from the death sentence of original sin.

[n david]

Originally Posted by larrylyates

It's pretty simple really.

Regardless of how one feels or thinks about the issue, nonetheless:

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Jesus means Jehovah-Saviour.

Why did we need saving from sins, if all that happens at the end is a stint in rehab and a slap on the fanny?

[Scott Hutchinson]

The Bibles does use terms should as death,perishing and such for the unregenerate.

[Dichotomy Girl]

Originally Posted by n david

Why did we need saving from sins, if all that happens at the end is a stint in rehab and a slap on the fanny?

You know my husband and I had a spirited debate about this last night. I find it refreshing to go home and discuss spiritual matters with an Atheist after a day of discussion with Apostolics.

Anyway, in the course of our discussion, this topic came up. Firstly, I never necessarily said we didn't need saving, nor that I didn't believe that Jesus was Savior. Do I lean towards universal reconciliation? Yes. I believed that Jesus' death paid the price for everyone. Period. But I do believe there will be a judgment for our actions in this life, our sins against others, Etc. And I hardly think it will constitute a "slap on the fanny".

Have you ever had the veil lifted from your eyes, and in a moment saw clearly the truth about something you had done/said/believed and how much it had hurt or damaged another person? Maybe it was something that you couldn't fix or undo, and so you were filled with terrible regret? (Like the moment when Nathan the prophet said to David "You are that Man!") Now imagine for a moment seeing your entire life laid bare like that, seeing the consequences and results of every action, word and self-deception.

The regret and despair would be overwhelming in its scope, to the point where I don't think we could even imagine it. And realizing that your life was done, there was no changing, or fixing, or undoing, or making right. I tremble to think of it.

So please believe me when I say that I believe there is infinite value in being a Christian (even if I don't believe you HAVE to be). Firstly, Jesus is just awesome. No matter how many issues I have ever had with ANY aspect of religion, I have never wavered in that regard. Secondly, my life is infinitely superior Post-Jesus (I was blind but now I see.). It has enhanced my relationships, my psychological well-being, my integrity, my work-ethic, and He has been my shelter in the storm.

This is what I tell my husband, to whom scripture is meaningless, and doctrine laughable, and the idea of a divine being preposterous: That Jesus' love changed me.

[Esaias]

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Matt 1:21

Luke 1:
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,

75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

76 And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;

77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

78 Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

So I was thinking about this discussion this morning as I was getting ready for work, and I kept thinking of the story of Jesus healing the blind man, and the Blind man getting questioned by the Pharisees, and how they were trying to prove that Jesus was a sinner, because he didn't follow their rules. And they would question the man, and he would give his opinion, and they would continue to investigate because this miracle didn't fit into their paradigm. And finally the man said "Whether he is a sinner or not, I don’t know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!”

Hopefully I'm misinterpreting this...because what I get is you're comparing yourself to Jesus because you're not following the "rules," whatever they may be. Hopefully I'm wrong, and this isn't what you meant.

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

Just because I do not always take the Bible literally (i.e. I do not approach it as a rule book or instruction manual), does not mean that I think it contains spiritual truths.

I think the sentence was meant to say "Just because I do not always take the Bible literally does not mean that I don't think it contains spiritual truths," correct?

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

As for the creation story I will borrow this thought from Rob Bell...which is more important that it happened or that it Happens? Jesus spoke in parables for a reason. I don't think that the practice started with Him. But for the record I do believe that the Universe was created by God. And I do believe in the Word in the John 1 kind of way...in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God....and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us...and that Word was crucified and resurrected and now dwells inside me.

Ah, Rob Bell. Universalist extraordinaire. Love wins!

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

Anyway, in the course of our discussion, this topic came up. Firstly, I never necessarily said we didn't need saving, nor that I didn't believe that Jesus was Savior. Do I lean towards universal reconciliation? Yes. I believed that Jesus' death paid the price for everyone. Period. But I do believe there will be a judgment for our actions in this life, our sins against others, Etc. And I hardly think it will constitute a "slap on the fanny".

So you take the view that any Biblical scripture about hell and eternal punishment are just allegories and parables not to be taken literally? There will be no universal reconciliation. Sorry, I know it doesn't tickle your ears, but it's the truth. Were there to be universal reconciliation, Jesus' death, burial and resurrection were done in vain.

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

Have you ever had the veil lifted from your eyes, and in a moment saw clearly the truth about something you had done/said/believed and how much it had hurt or damaged another person? Maybe it was something that you couldn't fix or undo, and so you were filled with terrible regret? (Like the moment when Nathan the prophet said to David "You are that Man!") Now imagine for a moment seeing your entire life laid bare like that, seeing the consequences and results of every action, word and self-deception.

The regret and despair would be overwhelming in its scope, to the point where I don't think we could even imagine it. And realizing that your life was done, there was no changing, or fixing, or undoing, or making right. I tremble to think of it.

If this includes people who have experienced salvation, it conflicts with scripture. Once someone repents, their past sins are washed away, never to be remembered. And those who haven't experienced salvation, the judgement is more than just seeing their lifetime sins played out before them.

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

So please believe me when I say that I believe there is infinite value in being a Christian (even if I don't believe you HAVE to be). Firstly, Jesus is just awesome. No matter how many issues I have ever had with ANY aspect of religion, I have never wavered in that regard. Secondly, my life is infinitely superior Post-Jesus (I was blind but now I see.). It has enhanced my relationships, my psychological well-being, my integrity, my work-ethic, and He has been my shelter in the storm.

This is what I tell my husband, to whom scripture is meaningless, and doctrine laughable, and the idea of a divine being preposterous: That Jesus' love changed me.

So there's value in being a Christian....buuuuuuut it's not really necessary, since love wins and everyone will be reconciled anyway. Being a Christian is like being Mormon in my area - it's for the perks. Good business connections, elevated status in the community, endorsements, kickbacks, etc.

Again, if it doesn't matter, love wins, and we're universally reconciled...why did God make such a fuss about the Word becoming flesh, dwelling among us; the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Ghost? I guess you'd just have to write off the Bible as a nice collection of parables and stories in order to believe this way.