Newborns & Children go to hell?! What does the Bib

[Nitehawk013]

Every thread where the word hell shows up turns into a Rob Bell "there is no hell, we all get to go to heaven" campfire sing along. Everyone goes to heaven. Yay. No matter how dirty, filthy, abominable and blasphemous your life may be...you get to go to heaven. Yay!

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

Every thread where the word hell shows up turns into a Rob Bell "there is no hell, we all get to go to heaven" campfire sing along. Everyone goes to heaven. Yay. No matter how dirty, filthy, abominable and blasphemous your life may be...you get to go to heaven. Yay!

It is not that simple nor that stupid, but that is the default when you can't stay in the discussion.
No one is suggesting that anything "dirty, filthy, abominable and blasphemous...." is ushered unchanged into heaven.

Universal Reconciliation suggests that God will not fail with the vast majority of humanity and the creation in general, rather an elect enters in now, the rest later. All go thru a process of change, the elect are more sensitive, others for a multitude of reasons cannot receive truth now. The goats are loved, just not to remain as they are.

BTW: NONE of use, not even the elect are ushered in without a finishing work, when we see him. So, don't be an elder brother. Receive the heart of the elect, the heart of Jesus, "...neither do I condemn you...." "...I came not to condemn the world..." etc.

[Nitehawk013]

Oh I disagree. It is that simple and yes indeed stupid of a doctrine. Everyone gets to go to heaven. If you are a sleazebag child molestor and killer who never repents, you just spent a mere second in the fire of hell until you say "oh shucks. I was wrong. I'm sorry". Then it's fastlane to heaven for eternity. Woo hoo. Everyone goes to heaven. Yay!

It's the emotionally driven drivel of bleeding hearts who cannot understand a God who is Holy and will not tolerate sin. Nor can you stomach that only our human minds find it tyrannical that God would punish eternally. God is not us, doesn't think like us and IS NOT bound to our sense of "fair" or "just". GOD is the ultimate arbitor of what is just and fair and if sin brings on eternal hell...then whether we like it or not that must be fair, just and good.

Universalism is simple (and stupid IMO). It is the natural reaction of spoiled kids who don't like accountability. Well..I don't like the idea of having to pay the ultimate price for not doing as God asks, so I will just ignore and change it.

Annihilationism is at least palatable. There is still punishment for wrong doing. Not like the free pass that is universalism.

[MarcBee]

Originally Posted by crakjak

You're are only quoting one half of the facts,

Actually not even half of the possible, relevant "facts." But in a forum we must summarize a pretty big book with just a few selected verses, hopefully ones that best capture the larger point.

Just as the MANY were made sinners, the same MANY are made righteous, thru the blood of Christ.

A valid piece of evidence, there. As with many doctrinal issues where we have some deciding to do concerning what the Bible is trying to say, it's best (or let's say common, useful, honest, if not also spiritual) to allow the clearest, most frequent meanings carry weight above the apparently less clear, less frequent, less corrorborated meanings. If per above, merely MANY (but not all) men were made sinners, then Houston, we've got a problem, in light of other more frequent, plain teaching that describes the curse of sin as universal. Of course, such "bible problems," are what provide careers for bible scholars and/or new Christian sects. (Of course, all that Apostolics need is the Holy Ghost to lead into all truth, natch.)

As you accuse, so you do, shape the meaning of scripture to your belief... Jonathan Edwards was an early American minister, while admirable in so many ways, was a fire and brimstoner of the strongest style, of which I think you would agree and approve.

Please do not confuse what I am claiming the bible writers are teaching with what I personally think is true. For my views about "what is true", I try to, out of courtesy, keep that over on "Timmy Talk."

...fire and brimstoner...>>

(joke) I guess a "brimstoner" is what one may as well try to become when judgment is falling from the sky.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The kindest thing is to raise the child right. As for "so what", you seem to believe it's ok to "play God" but murder is a sin.

I don't believe it is OK to play God.

Murder is wrong.

Raising a child "right" isn't 100% guaranteed. Killing him or her is. (In the theology of those who believe dead child goes to heaven.)

To be crystal clear, I don't believe it is kind (or for the greatest good) to kill a child. I don't believe a dead child goes to heaven or to hell. I believe death is the end. I am speaking from the point of view of the hell/heaven final destination crowd, and the age of accountability sub-crowd.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by MarcBee

There's a significant difference between eternal torture vs. a punishment commensurate with the crime. In your god's economy, the smallest sin (a finite incident) is worthy of an infinite, eternal damnation. That's not a "punishment" derived from a sense of justice, but is rather a psychotic behavior. The supposed "escape route," which I'm sure you should invoke, does not obviate the fact that the smallest sin does MERIT the eternal wrath of god. (James 2:10.) And this is all "justice" to the Christian mind--at least to one that believes, rather than spins the bible.

'In your god's economy'.

Perhaps you assume too much.

The wages of sin is DEATH. Sin is transgression of the law. The penalty for sin is death, not 'eternal torture'. There is no Bible verse which teaches that the penalty for sin on Judgement Day is eternal torture. The Bible clearly teaches that eternal life is the gift of God to those who believe. Eternal life is therefore NOT given to sinners so they can then be tortured forever.

The Scripture is also clear - God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Also, that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance. And further, that God commands all men everywhere to repent (obviously so they can be saved from the penalty of their sins).

God is the Governor of the universe. As this universe is populated with moral beings, having moral agency, and thus having moral character (good or evil), his Government over such beings must be a moral government. Thus he has a LAW which is designed to govern their behaviour. But his law also contains sanctions. Some of those sanctions are temporal, applicable to this life immediately. But there is a further sanction, that threatens death to those who rebel and refuse to be reformed.

You speak of 'the smallest sin' as if sin is a 'trifle'. Let's see...

Idolatry and rebellion against the universal government, aka sedition and treason. Is that a trifle? Is not treason punishable by death or life imprisonment in the US?

What about our relations to fellow citizens?

Murder. Is that a trifle?
Adultery? Theft? Bearing false witness against another to bring unwarranted punishment upon the innocent? How about greed?

While it certainly is true that criminals usually think the punishment for their crime is 'too much' in comparison to the crimes they have committed, yet we have to ask... should the opinion of criminals as to the 'rightful severity' of legal punishment for crime be taken into consideration when we think about what punishment actually fits the crime? Only a criminal, or his attorney, or some leftist liberal would try to affirm such a thing.

The government of God is by simple definition the most important government of all. The law of God is by very definition the most important of all law. The commands of God are by that very fact the most important of all commands. Therefore, the violating of the most important law, the breaking of the most important commandments, must of necessity be the most heinous of crimes, deserving of the most severest of punishment.

That punishment is death.

The Bible affirms that nobody will be fail to receive their due, except those who receive a pardon from the Governor. That pardon is available to 'whosoever will'. But who indeed 'will'? Who wills to receive the pardon offered by the Governor?

He very well could have simply decided that since crime is running rampant, He will simply punish the criminals. Offering pardon is not REQUIRED by anyone's sense of justice or fairness. But offering pardon is the very heart of 'mercy and grace'.

Of course, unreformed criminals do not see pardon in that light. They either see it as an opportunity to 'get out of jail' and go commit more crimes...or they see one criminal pardoned and not themselves and conclude the pardoned one is being shown special favor not shown to them. IE they are jealous and envious and come to despise both the one pardoned and the one who pardons.

But they have no one to blame but themselves, because pardon is offered to all upon condition of repentance. They, not truly wanting to repent, not having 'true sorrow for their crimes', but only a collection of utterly selfish motives, cannot repent - because repentance means abandoning such selfishness. One cannot abandon selfishness unless one abandons selfishness.

So they do not repent, and are angry at the thought of others being pardoned. They want to be pardoned without having to repent. They know they do not deserve pardon, in their heart, so they begin to make excuses. They blame God, or other citizens, for their miserable condition. Given time, they come to believe their excuses. They even imagine that God's way is 'psychotic', when it is THEY who have broken from reality, projecting all their evils and problems onto someone else, blaming God for their refusals to be reformed, railing against the Government because it punishes criminal rebels like themselves.

In short, they become just like left wing radical nutcases, who are incapable of truly rational thought.

'...wicked and unreasonable men.' Indeed.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

Oh I disagree. It is that simple and yes indeed stupid of a doctrine. Everyone gets to go to heaven. If you are a sleazebag child molestor and killer who never repents, you just spent a mere second in the fire of hell until you say "oh shucks. I was wrong. I'm sorry". Then it's fastlane to heaven for eternity. Woo hoo. Everyone goes to heaven. Yay!

It's the emotionally driven drivel of bleeding hearts who cannot understand a God who is Holy and will not tolerate sin. Nor can you stomach that only our human minds find it tyrannical that God would punish eternally. God is not us, doesn't think like us and IS NOT bound to our sense of "fair" or "just". GOD is the ultimate arbitor of what is just and fair and if sin brings on eternal hell...then whether we like it or not that must be fair, just and good.

Universalism is simple (and stupid IMO). It is the natural reaction of spoiled kids who don't like accountability. Well..I don't like the idea of having to pay the ultimate price for not doing as God asks, so I will just ignore and change it.

Annihilationism is at least palatable. There is still punishment for wrong doing. Not like the free pass that is universalism.

Consider two men, X and Y. They both are vile child-molesting sinners. X lives to the age of 75 and dies a natural death, never facing justice here on earth. Y lives to the age of 75 and gets saved, then dies a year later.

Not a whole lot of difference. But one burns forever in hell and the other spends eternity in heaven.

Right?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Consider two men, X and Y. They both are vile child-molesting sinners. X lives to the age of 75 and dies a natural death, never facing justice here on earth. Y lives to the age of 75 and gets saved, then dies a year later.

Not a whole lot of difference. But one burns forever in hell and the other spends eternity in heaven.

Right?

Yeah, too bad God didn't make a way for sinners to NEVER be saved, pardoned, forgiven, or whatever. Sheesh, all this greasy grace claptrap...

[MarcBee]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Perhaps you assume too much.

Fair statement. My assumptions are informed by 25 years of fundamental bible believing and hearing it preached (at least the parts that preachers bother to preach.) That experience has no doubt triggered and hardened certain assumptions, but not without some valid evidence.

The wages of sin is DEATH. Sin is transgression of the law. The penalty for sin is death, not 'eternal torture'.

Are you claiming no humans go to eternal torture? If punishment or hell is merely annihilation and not eternal torture, that's welcome news for the unfortunate unsaved! (no sarcasm implied.) But appears from everyday observation that "regular death" is the default phase of all life on earth, whether a bacteria, a tree, or a person. So if the thing we are already used to (natural death) is all that the bible writers had in mind for the unsaved then what's the big fuss about "eternal" or "everlasting" punishment, per below?

Apparently god's power of inspiration of his holy writers did not make much effort to "walk back" what the following appears to be saying:

Mark 9: 43 “.. it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into unquenchable fire. (NAS)

Same verse, NKJV: "to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched"

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV) The devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Obviously not many presumably human beings are mentioned in above verse. Anyone else going to join them?
Apparently yes:
Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire..

There is no Bible verse which teaches that the penalty for sin on Judgement Day is eternal torture.

Um, okay.

You speak of 'the smallest sin' as if sin is a 'trifle'. Let's see...

No, actually I was trying to claim that NT bible writers make little or no distinction between little and big sins (see James 2:10.)
Our everyday experiences suggest that there are gradations of sin, but in light of the fallen Adamic nature of mankind, such gradations are pretty much irrelevant.

You came up with "TRIFLE." The word I used was FINITE.

They even imagine that God's way is 'psychotic',

I'll own that. To punish a finite sin with an infinitely painful punishment lasting for eternity is a psychotic thing to do under any circumstances.

[Nitehawk013]

Yet you think to grant eternal reward to a soul that sins is not psychotic to you? You do not respect the Holiness of God. You fail to understand that God is Holy to a degree we cannot wrap our heads around. He IS holiness. He will not therefore tolerate sin in any degree to stand before him. There is no alternative but for sin, and it's partakers, than to be cast from Him for eternity. He will not suddenly change and allow sin in his presence. He cannot. It is contrary to HIM.

If one is not covered by the blood of Christ, having put on Christ in baptism, then you have only your own righteousness, which is rags. You are not sinless and cannot therefore enter heaven. The only reason we, the imperfect vessels we are, can enter Heaven is because we put on Christ and His perfection. That is our only hope.

This idea that one can die havign never put on Christ, then spend what amounts to a second in eternity's vastness in the fire of hell, then just say "oh Im sorry" and get a pass out of the fire and into heaven is nonsense. Such "repentance" isn't sorrow for ones sin. It is sorrow for getting caught and having to pay the price. It is like the murderer who coldly rejects authority and calls to express remorse, yet when the judge says "Guilty" suddenly they weep and break down. There is no sorrow for what they have done, only for the fact that now they must pay the price for their wrongs.