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View Poll Results: Is water baptism part of the new birth?
Yes 25 80.65%
No 4 12.90%
Don't know 2 6.45%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

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  #71  
Old 10-27-2013, 06:34 PM
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Re: Is baptism part of the new birth?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
First of all the bible explicitly states the Spirit's Role in being Born of again. However as far as Parts, it says "born of water AND Spirit"..that's two parts.

BTW since I did not refer to one thing being more important, your question is a form of a strawman argument. Id say they are ALL important. Being IMPORTANT does not answer what ROLE they play
I wouldn't know a strawman argument if he lived next door. I'm just not that sharp. But it does give me pause when one questions the necessity of water baptism in Jesus name. If you weren't, then forgive me.
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  #72  
Old 10-28-2013, 10:19 PM
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Re: Is baptism part of the new birth?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Is water baptism part of the new birth or 'born again' experience?
Yes. All liars will state orherwise.
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  #73  
Old 10-29-2013, 12:11 AM
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Re: Is baptism part of the new birth?

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Why can't baptism be a PART of the New Birth but not be an absolute NECESSITY in order to become Born again?
Hard to be reborn without first dying with Christ (i.e. being buried with Him by baptism into death...)

Resurrection before death? Never.

New birth and being born again are identical terms in regards to meaning. Something can't be a part of the New Birth but then not be essential to becoming born again.

It would be like asking "Why can't oxygen be part of breathing but not be an absolute necessity in order to live and survive?"

If it's a part, it's a part. It can't be taken away or made un-essential.
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  #74  
Old 10-29-2013, 12:13 AM
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Re: Is baptism part of the new birth?

Titus 3:5,

Quote:
5. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost...
How many agree that renewing of the Holy Spirit is the baptism of the Holy Spirit and that washing of regeneration is water baptism in Jesus name?
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  #75  
Old 10-29-2013, 12:45 AM
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Re: Is baptism part of the new birth?

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Hard to be reborn without first dying with Christ (i.e. being buried with Him by baptism into death...)

Resurrection before death? Never.

New birth and being born again are identical terms in regards to meaning. Something can't be a part of the New Birth but then not be essential to becoming born again.

It would be like asking "Why can't oxygen be part of breathing but not be an absolute necessity in order to live and survive?"

If it's a part, it's a part. It can't be taken away or made un-essential.
Actually we were ALL dead already in trespasses and sins.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins. That's why we need to be born again or Born from above.
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  #76  
Old 10-29-2013, 01:09 AM
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Re: Is baptism part of the new birth?

Yes, but if only that, what need to take up our cross and follow the Lord in order to be baptized into His death?

Two deaths or death (dead in trespasses) plus death (baptism into Christ's death) then resurrection? While we read of the second death in Revelation, I don't think that what is meant (since those who partake of the first resurrection will not suffer the second death).

If we are merely raised from the death experienced by trespasses and sins apart from also experiencing the death of the Lord into which we are to be baptized/buried in order to experience New Birth, then what need of being baptized into Christ's death?

We can't by-pass baptism into Christ's death as we come up into newness of life. Baptism into Christ's death is the only certainty we'll ever experience newness of life to begin with.

Notice we're not baptized into our own death as caused by our own trespasses and sins.

Otherwise I agree, our spiritual death as a result of trespasses and sin is the reason for needing to be born again/from above.
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  #77  
Old 10-29-2013, 01:30 AM
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Re: Is baptism part of the new birth?

Did gentiles in acts 10 experience newness of life when filled with the Holy Ghost before baptism?
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  #78  
Old 10-29-2013, 01:50 AM
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Re: Is baptism part of the new birth?

Not sure if you're asking me, Truthseeker. But I will answer.

My answer is no. The body of sins is destroyed by/at baptism. Until that portfolio, if you will, of all past sins is eradicated, even if one were to receive the Holy Spirit, it still doesn't change the fact that they can be a slave to sin.

We are told that the Spirit is life, true. But Romans 6 teaches we are baptized into Christ's death, not into His resurrection. We can conclude therefore that Romans 6 is not about Spirit baptism, but about water baptism. Paul details Spirit baptism later, in Romans 8.

Secondly, Jesus taught that though some might call Him "Lord, Lord" (only possible through the Holy Spirit a la 1 Corinthians 12:3) and even prophesy, cast out devils, and do other miraculous things, they still may not be doing the will of the Father, and so, are labeled workers of iniquity and are refused Heaven.

So how can someone who is able to call Jesus Lord through the Spirit, be used in Gifts of the Spirit (prophecy, working of miracles, perhaps gift of faith or gifts of healing, too, as implied) still not make Heaven?

Easy. By still being a slave to sin if or because of the body of sins were not destroyed by being baptized into Christ's death, which is part and parcel of the Father's will for all believers everywhere.

In the Tabernacle, I suppose one could (if they dared) offer a sacrifice at the brazen altar, SKIP the Laver of Water, and go right into the Holy Place to worship, but I suspect if someone dared to do so, they might end up as dead as Nadab and Abihu.

And since these things are shadows of the true, I think we would be remiss if we didn't align our soteriology and new birth doctrine with what has come before through typology.
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Last edited by votivesoul; 10-29-2013 at 02:12 AM.
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  #79  
Old 10-29-2013, 02:09 AM
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Re: Is baptism part of the new birth?

What about Jesus?
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  #80  
Old 10-29-2013, 02:14 AM
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Re: Is baptism part of the new birth?

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Originally Posted by seekerman View Post
What about Jesus?
I don't understand the question. Please elaborate.

Do you refer to Christ's baptism or something else?
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