Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Realism
It's one thing to believe salvation occurs at belief and repentence. It's another thing to deny that the baptism of the Holy Ghost is absent an external sign, when Acts 8 makes it so unquestionably clear that a visible, tangible sign was experienced. |
No one has denied the external visible manifestations of
Acts 2,8, 10, and 19. The question isn't how did God show that the Spirit initially came on the Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles, but rather is this the normative universal experience for every single person who has been born again/saved in the history of the church? And more specifically the question for this thread revolved around in fact what does the Bible tell us the evidence of salvation is, and the answer is given in the opening post where approximately 20 scriptures are posted that in plain language say "we can know....."
There is absolutely no scripture anywhere that teaches explicitly that someone must speak in tongues to be saved. It is a doctrine of assumption or at the very best a doctrine of implication or suggestion. Because of what happened in
Acts 8 and
Acts 10 then the implication or suggestion is "this will happen to everyone who is born again" but we don't see that in the NT in epistles or in church history. To my knowledge (and I'm always up for a good church history discussion) no post-apostolic/ante-nicean "father" wrote anything that would back up the notion that all who are saved will speak in tongues, except for perhaps Tertullian later in his life after he became a Montanist (how awkard is that when OPs have to use Tertullian to back as their historical source?). Oh yes you will say "their writings aren't authoritative", and I'll grant you that, but they do have some historical use, and do give us an idea about what happened in the early church, even if it is flawed, uninspired, and incomplete.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Realism
All believers should expect to receive the promise of the Holy Ghost. To deny that gift is an unfortunate disservice.
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All born again believers do receive the Holy Ghost, else they are not born again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Real Realism
And when the Holy Ghost falls upon a person, something external happens.
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Not necessarily. When God justifies us (
Romans 3:26)and imputes the righteousness of Christ to us (
Romans 4:24) can we discern that based on external manifestations? Why should we expect an external manifestation when we are adopted into the family of God (
Romans 8:15-16), and yet according to
Galatians 4:6 anyone who has been adopted has received the Spirit. Being born again is a spiritual work, why do you guys insist on external things-in the face of the majority of the NT and church history? You know that NO ONE taught the "full package" "3 step" salvation until the 20th century, to say nothing of a 3 stepper who taught holiness standards. There is no record of any group or sect teaching what OPs teach regarding salvation anywhere in church history, not just a group, but not even an individual that is documented.
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