An Apology

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Seekerman,

Can you cite any actual cases of anyone in Bro. Epley's fellowship who have allowed their children to die? I know of adults who have chosen not to go to the hospital (and died), but I don't know of any Apostolics who have allowed their children to die out of faith. In one particular case of a woman who died after childbirth, if it had been my husband, he would have called an ambulance in defiance of my wishes--but still, she was a grown woman.

The most recent two cases that can be found in Google are both stories involving non-Apostolics.

I asked epley if anyone in his fellowship promotes or allows a doctrine which results in infants and children suffering and sometimes dying. I believe epley and I know some of the same people, not sure, but who they are isn't as important as does this practice occur in his circles. And does he openly condem it?

He hasn't openly condemned it on the forum you know.

I know of those who have. And as I've said over and over, I'm not going to name names.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Maybe I need to come up with another word besides respect, but essentially...I do UNDERSTAND the simple sincerity in a person who takes something at face value, and I do empathize with believing something so strongly you're willing to sacrifice life for it.

What do you think of the NT Christians who refused to renounce Christ and their children were put to death in front of them?

Who?

[Charnock]

What a whiny baby.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Who?

Ancient Rome was a prime perpetrator for starters. I would have to dig a bit to come up with sources with specific cases, but there are numerous historical accounts and documentation of the atrocities bestowed upon the early church by Rome. You're better off going to a library that keeps old books (especially of a religious/historical nature) rather than Googling.

And...have you never read Foxe's Book of Martyr's?

Here is the complete text of this detailed Martyrdom history online: http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html

It's not an easy read, but if you haven't read it, you need to. It's documented church history.

Here's a quote by Tacitus: (Roman Empire historian and senator)

"Nero punished a race of men who were hated for their evil practices. These men were called Christians. He got a number of people to confess. On their evidence a number of Christians were convicted and put to death with dreadful cruelty. Some were covered with the skins of wild beasts and left to be eaten by dogs. Others were nailed to the cross. Many were burned alive and set on fire to serve as torches at night."
Tacitus--Source

Here's a quote from the wikipedia page regarding execution of Christians by lions or other animals:

"Execution of Christians[edit]


Christian Martyrs in the Colosseum by Konstantin Flavitsky
The use of damnatio ad bestias against Christians began in the 1st century AD. Tacitus describes that during the first persecution of Christians under the reign of Nero (after the Fire of Rome in 64), people were wrapped in animal skins (called tunica molesta) and thrown to dogs.[31] This practice was followed by other emperors who moved it into the arena and used larger animals. Application of damnatio ad bestias to Christians was intended to equate them with the worst criminals, who were usually punished this way.[32]

According to Roman laws, Christians were:[33]

Offenders of their Majesty (majestatis rei)
For their worship Christians gathered in secret and at night, making unlawful assembly, and participation in such collegium illicitum or coetus nocturni was equated with a riot.
Refused to honor images of the emperor by libations and incense
Dissenters from the state gods (άθεοι, sacrilegi)
Followers of magic prohibited by law (magi, malefici)
Confessors of a religion unauthorized by the law (religio nova, peregrina et illicita), according to the Twelve Tables).
Apart from these specific violations, Christians fell under special government edicts, which were published from 104 AD and targeted anyone who identified themselves as a Christian.[33] Christians were made public scapegoats for any unexplained natural disasters, such as drought, famine, pestilence, earthquakes and floods.[34][35]

The spread of the practice of throwing Christians to beasts was reflected by the Christian writer Tertullian (2nd century). He wrote that Christians started avoiding theaters and circuses, which were associated with the place of their torture.[36] The persecution of Christians ceased by the 4th century. The Edict of Milan (313) gave them freedom of religion."--Source

I don't remember where I read the accounts of children being put to death in front of their parents, but it definitely passed before my eyes. It might be in Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Ancient Rome was a prime perpetrator for starters. I would have to dig a bit to come up with sources with specific cases, but there are numerous historical accounts and documentation of the atrocities bestowed upon the early church by Rome. You're better off going to a library that keeps old books (especially of a religious/historical nature) rather than Googling.

And...have you never read Foxe's Book of Martyr's?

Here is the complete text of this detailed Martyrdom history online: http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/home.html

It's not an easy read, but if you haven't read it, you need to. It's documented church history.

Here's a quote by Tacitus: (Roman Empire historian and senator)

"Nero punished a race of men who were hated for their evil practices. These men were called Christians. He got a number of people to confess. On their evidence a number of Christians were convicted and put to death with dreadful cruelty. Some were covered with the skins of wild beasts and left to be eaten by dogs. Others were nailed to the cross. Many were burned alive and set on fire to serve as torches at night."
Tacitus--Source

Here's a quote from the wikipedia page regarding execution of Christians by lions or other animals:



I don't remember where I read the accounts of children being put to death in front of their parents, but it definitely passed before my eyes. It might be in Foxe's Book of Martyrs.

I thought you meant in the New Testament. Yes, there were unspeakable horrors perpetrated against the early Christians, no doubt about that.

That's not the same as someone watching their sick children suffer, or die, when they have medical help available though.

[MissBrattified]

Here's one account from Foxe's Book of Martyrs, Chapter II, under the heading "The Tenth Persecution, Under Diocletian, A.D. 303."

"Amphianus was a gentleman of eminence in Lucia, and a scholar of Eusebius; Julitta, a Lycaonian of royal descent, but more celebrated for her virtues than noble blood. While on the rack, her child was killed before her face. Julitta, of Cappadocia, was a lady of distinguished capacity, great virtue, and uncommon courage. To complete the execution, Julitta had boiling pitch poured on her feet, her sides torn with hooks, and received the conclusion of her martyrdom, by being beheaded, April 16, A.D. 305."

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by seekerman

I thought you meant in the New Testament. Yes, there were unspeakable horrors perpetrated against the early Christians, no doubt about that.

That's not the same as someone watching their sick children suffer, or die, when they have medical help available though.

I agree with you, seekerman, but tell me how the thought process is different for the person who believes in trusting God, assuming that they believe it's as important as fidelity to God. How is their logic any different than the person who refuses to deny Christ? You are essentially saying that those people should be forced to deny their faith in God. I'm asking about the line of thinking; not the thought itself.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Here's one account from Foxe's Book of Martyrs, Chapter II, under the heading "The Tenth Persecution, Under Diocletian, A.D. 303."

"Amphianus was a gentleman of eminence in Lucia, and a scholar of Eusebius; Julitta, a Lycaonian of royal descent, but more celebrated for her virtues than noble blood. While on the rack, her child was killed before her face. Julitta, of Cappadocia, was a lady of distinguished capacity, great virtue, and uncommon courage. To complete the execution, Julitta had boiling pitch poured on her feet, her sides torn with hooks, and received the conclusion of her martyrdom, by being beheaded, April 16, A.D. 305."

Yes, that's horrible.

[Charnock]

Were those martyrs tongue-talking Oneness Apostolics?

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by seekerman

No, I'm not trying to make it synonymous with 'apostolic'. I'm stating the fact that the behavior occurs and it usually occurs in those cult-like sects who label themselves 'apostolic'.

If this (the bold) isn't double speak, I'm not sure what is....lol. I have often said there is a fine line between stupidity and faith. But is must remind you that while there are a FEW "apostolics" that teach the no-doctor/medicine doctrine, there are MANY other "Christian" groups that teach this doctrine as well as non-Christian groups like the JWs etc. Your statement is that USUALLY it is those who call themselves 'apostolic.' IMO This simply shows your bias toward "apostolic" folks/beliefs.