Respect as Women

[ILG]

Every culture has it's views about women, the place of women, what women should and should not do etc.

One thing people from the outside of the church said when I was in the church, or seemed to indicate, at least, was that women were disrespected and made to wear clothes that the men were not, etc.

Whenever I hear something to that regard, my brain splits into two. I want to tell these dissenters, "But, you do not understand."

First of all, the dissenters that I know are not ex-UPC people. They are sometimes educated, sometimes uneducated, but plain people who know little to nothing about the religious culture I came out of. Because I was not raised in the UPC, nor was my husband, we came in and out of the culture 19 years later, rather seamlessly. So, when people who have never been in the UPC criticize the place and treatment of women, I find myself agreeing to a certain extent, but yet, I also find myself wanting to defend something about a culture they they simply do not understand. I sense their arrogance about their own stance, as if they are better than, or know something that simpletons such as the UPC and other conservative Christian groups do not. I find myself getting aggravated at their judgmentalism, their supposed superiority. People from the outside just don't get it. I find myself shaking my head, wondering how to verbally cross this wide chasm.

On the flip-side, I cannot defend certain things about the UPC treatment of women either, with the exception that most believe it is simply biblical and the UPC people are not trying to disrespect women, but simply trying to live what they believe the Bible to stand for.

I find myself with people that are living in a hook-up culture. A hook-up is a sexual encounter with no strings attached whatsoever. On college campuses, this is practically expected. It is a strange culture that strongly defends women's rights such as the right to not be beaten or verbally abused and to have a career or an abortion. And yet, she is expected to hop in the sack casually with no regard to her emotions.

See, women are respected in the UPC in a way they are not in the world. I can't speak for much beyond what I understand on college campuses as far as what is expected in the dating realm in the world at large. However, I remember from my pre-UPC days in college, it wasn't much better than the hook-up culture back then.

The people looking from the outside in, see women not being allowed to hold high office positions and are frowned upon often as pastors. They are seen as being secondary in marriage, and, depending on how their own husbands treat them in marriage, this can be a blessing or a tragedy. Often, from the outside, the women who were beaten and told to stay in marriage are touted as the way women are treated in conservative circles. This can be true and that is sad. They see how women are taught to cover themselves and be modest so that men are sometimes given a pass to their own responsibilities concerning their own behavior. This is also, sadly, sometimes true.

But they are forgetting that women are held up and respected sexually before marriage as having the right to say no and are even expected to. Women's emotions are respected in this way as being valuable. Women are not to be used and thrown away. Women's bodies are to be respected and are not supposed to be treated like a piece of meat to be used by men. Keeping it covered keeps up with that respect. Keeping pure before marriage teaches both men and women that the sex act brings forth children that are to be cherished and loved. Married women are respected to the extent that they are simply off-limits, period. It is not a game of who can be with who and keep it a secret.

Sadly though, I must say that somehow, things can get twisted. I am not quite sure how this happens. Somehow, the teachings about being modest can get turned around in the eyes of men in the church to think that women who are dressing immodestly want sex rather than that they are ignorant. That's sad because especially young women, often simply do not know.

There should be more talk about men not looking upon women to lust after them and less talk about how women dress. Women should dress modestly, to that I don't disagree. But each household should be allowed to decide what that means. The onus of responsibility for this should not be skewed upon the women.

There are some things I miss about being in the church. People can say how women are looked down upon and made secondary. But they haven't experienced the flip-side of the respect that women are given in the church the way it is not outside of it.

Motherhood is respected. Most women are not expected to hoof it with a full-time job and take care of the kids too. It is generally expected that the man will bring home the bacon so someone can keep the homes fires burning. This gives balance to the pressures of this rat-race world.

I don't want to forget these benefits. I don't want to forget the respect that women are given in the church. I also don't want to forget the abuse that sometimes occurs when people use certain scriptures like swords to abuse women.

I would be interested in hearing feedback on this subject from all.

[Sasha]

ILG, I love how you write and put things into perspective. I do agree that more teaching needs to be addressed with the men. It saddens me to see the divorce rate in the church to be as high as it is in the world. Sadder still is that they leave their spouse and find another in the church.

I personally know four women who's spouses left them in my former Upc church. Three of the four men remarried and of those three, two of them married women from another Upc church within a year of divorce. The only man not remarried is a minister...still. Of the four women, only one is remarried and did so about 4 years after her husband left her for another woman. Three of the four couples were married for about 20 years or more.

From what I have personally seen, its the men who leave and find another. The love for their spouse is gone. There is no more respect. Their families are torn apart. And I wont even touch on the affairs that have taken place by ministry and even pastors.

But instead of teaching our men how to love and respect women, we instead focus on teaching women that its their hair and dress that dictates how men treat them.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Sasha

ILG, I love how you write and put things into perspective. I do agree that more teaching needs to be addressed with the men. It saddens me to see the divorce rate in the church to be as high as it is in the world. Sadder still is that they leave their spouse and find another in the church.

I personally know four women who's spouses left them in my former Upc church. Three of the four men remarried and of those three, two of them married women from another Upc church within a year of divorce. The only man not remarried is a minister...still. Of the four women, only one is remarried and did so about 4 years after her husband left her for another woman. Three of the four couples were married for about 20 years or more.

From what I have personally seen, its the men who leave and find another. The love for their spouse is gone. There is no more respect. Their families are torn apart. And I wont even touch on the affairs that have taken place by ministry and even pastors.

But instead of teaching our men how to love and respect women, we instead focus on teaching women that its their hair and dress that dictates how men treat them.

I wonder if this is why there is so much divorce and affairs. I remember that too when I was there. It was so disheartening. I think that pornography might have a lot to do with the male dissatisfaction. When they watch porn, they think sex is something that God never intended. Women lying to men about it for money, feeding male egos. The egos enlarge to the point that they become dissatisfied with reality.

I had forgotten about the divorce rate in the church. It was that way even before internet porn though. I think maybe the respect for women is supposed to be what is true but it has gotten skewed somehow.

[Pragmatist]

I think respect for women varies among churches.

I've been to some churches where women were definitely treated as second class. It was fairly shocking to me, because that wasn't how it was in the church I grew up in.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Pragmatist

I think respect for women varies among churches.

I've been to some churches where women were definitely treated as second class. It was fairly shocking to me, because that wasn't how it was in the church I grew up in.

What happened there that made you feel they were treated as second class?

[MissBrattified]

Very insightful post, ILG. I appreciate the way you look at all sides of this rubix cube (too many angles to be called a coin).

I would like to comment on the problem of abuse. Generally, men who are prone to be abusive are going to excuse it within whatever framework they can, regardless of whether they offer scripture or other reasons for their behavior. What makes abuse easier for the abuser is isolation--from friends, family and community. The way the conservative church can improve, IMO, is to stop treating situations like an embarrassment to be covered up and learn to step up and protect victims without hesitation or worrying about something becoming public. I don't think it's the conservative dress rules that set the stage for abuse, although those rules can be used as a tool by an abuser. I think it's the all-too-common separation from family, friends and sometimes the community that makes conservative women easy targets.

I agree wholeheartedly that the culture allows for women to fulfill traditional roles to their hearts' content, which is wonderful for women who want to do that. It's been my experience, however, that the Apostolic church needs to improve in this area, and that other denominations are far more supportive of choices to be a SAHM or homeschool.

It's true that motherhood, virtue and marriage are respected, which is a refreshing change from the secular world where motherhood is often seen as the ignorant woman's choice, virtue is laughed at and marriage is optional, if not archaic. I have conveyed to my daughters that our dress standards are largely preferential rather than scriptural (IMO), but that they are associated with a lifestyle that has a lot of benefits. If you choose to discard the rules, you are truly discarding more than that, and decisions to that end need to be made carefully and deliberately.

As a whole, I do think respect for women varies from place to place, and is modeled by the leadership (or not). Men in leadership who have a disdain for women or who disrespect or abuse them are also likely to attract men to their church who want to have a pastor back them up when they want to control their own wives.

I will add this: I'm extremely suspicious of pastors who won't intervene in an abusive situation. IMO, it says loudly and clearly that they are guilty of the same in their own home.

[Pragmatist]

Education regarded as unnecessary for women, tolerating abuse of women, women coming in to clean up after men's events, preaching from the pulpit that clearly indicated women shouldn't do anything without asking a man first.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Pragmatist

I think respect for women varies among churches.

I've been to some churches where women were definitely treated as second class. It was fairly shocking to me, because that wasn't how it was in the church I grew up in.

It isn't that way in our current church, either. Women are definitely respected, and valued equally with men. I'm 100% certain that abuse (for anyone) would never be tolerated, and have seen it dealt with swiftly and directly on one occasion.

Interestingly, my husband commented once about a woman who hadn't allowed him to hold a door open for her, and expressed his frustration since he had only meant to show respect. Our pastor countered with the idea that really such courtesy should be extended to everyone--not just women. It gave both of us something to think about.

Pastor T often talks about respecting people in general, and he definitely strives to do that in dealing with the members of our church. It's an attitude that spreads in a very positive way. In staff meetings, it's stressed that we are to respect church members and one another, and in staff/business meetings, everyone is given an equal voice--male, female, leaders and laymen.

I've been subjected to a very different experience in the past, and I would say that respect is tone that must be set and enforced by the church leadership. (Enforced in the sense that disrespect or abusive behavior will not be tolerated on the part of staff or leadership.)

[ILG]

I agree wholeheartedly that the culture allows for women to fulfill traditional roles to their hearts' content, which is wonderful for women who want to do that. It's been my experience, however, that the Apostolic church needs to improve in this area, and that other denominations are far more supportive of choices to be a SAHM or homeschool.

Can you give examples of this?

It's true that motherhood, virtue and marriage are respected, which is a refreshing change from the secular world where motherhood is often seen as the ignorant woman's choice, virtue is laughed at and marriage is optional, if not archaic. I have conveyed to my daughters that our dress standards are largely preferential rather than scriptural (IMO), but that they are associated with a lifestyle that has a lot of benefits. If you choose to discard the rules, you are truly discarding more than that, and decisions to that end need to be made carefully and deliberately.

I think you are very wise to teach them this. It grieves me that the UPC does not teach this as a whole. The fact that they don't is largely a reason for my estrangement today. Standards taught as salvational is a toxic sickness in the movement. If the standards are beneficial, they should stand on their own as valid. Apparently, people fear so much that they are not valid, that they feel they have to hammer them in and cast people into hell that don't do them. It was this that I felt I had to separate myself from...this toxic sickness, more than the standards themselves. So, I try to hold onto the principles without the standards, which I believe can be done. However, it can be good for children to have a visual. But, as a parent a person has to decided if the visual is more beneficial than the toxicity in the movement which is a shame.

As a whole, I do think respect for women varies from place to place, and is modeled by the leadership (or not). Men in leadership who have a disdain for women or who disrespect or abuse them are also likely to attract men to their church who want to have a pastor back them up when they want to control their own wives.

That's true. So, a church can preach and teach the exact same standards while one is abusive and another is not. However, and this is something I find puzzling....it seems that standards can be abused so easily, almost like a glove to a hand of an abuser.

I will add this: I'm extremely suspicious of pastors who won't intervene in an abusive situation. IMO, it says loudly and clearly that they are guilty of the same in their own home.

Hmm. In the defense of some, I knew of a woman who was raped by her husband and the pastor was very unsupportive, but he would never treat his wife that way. I never understood his lack of support.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Pragmatist

Education regarded as unnecessary for women, tolerating abuse of women, women coming in to clean up after men's events, preaching from the pulpit that clearly indicated women shouldn't do anything without asking a man first.

So, why can standards, meant to be good, be so easily abused? Why is this abuse so easily tolerated? For example, wearing pants as a stand against an abusive pastor such as one you mentioned above is seen as anathema but the abuse itself is given a pass?