End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

[Sasha]

That's why I won't answer his posts when he asks if I believe the scripture he posted. He doesn't even believe it himself. LOL!

If women are to be silent in church, let them be silent. That means NO TALKING, SINGING, nothing but SILENCE!!

LOL!

[n david]

Originally Posted by Sasha

RDP, Sis. Alvear is sick with pneumonia. Will you be praying for her today? Will you have your church pray for her today?

He's said he would. You understand people can disagree over certain issues, but still respect and pray for each other. I know it's a foreign concept in this divisive age, but it's true.

All I've read of RDP is while he disagrees on this issue, he still loves, respects and prays for Sis Alvear. IIRC, he's even financially supported their missionary work.

[Sister Alvear]

and we deeply appreciate that.

[rdp]

I am having trouble with my eys so have not been posting...in all respect it is useless to answer or show evidence to our friend. Here is some information and yes it is cut and paste...but very good...WOMEN PASTORS IN THE EARLY CHURCH



What biblical "evidence" have you shown for "women-preachers" in the church?? Copy-paste of commentary from women (such as below) ??



by Rev. Kathryn Riss


No such thing as a "Rev." woman - I can call myself a moo-cow, but that doesn't make me one !


The New Testament says very little about pastors. In fact, as a term for ministers, the word (poimen) appears only once in Ephesians 4:11. While the word is familiar to use from modern usage, we are uncertain as to the exact role of pastors in the New Testament or how they functioned in relation to elders, bishops and other leaders. Probably all these roles were fluid, being in the formative stages.

The meaning of the New Testament word "pastor" is "shepherd," and so we think of pastors as leaders who tend a flock. Psalm 23 speaks of the Lord as our Shepherd, teaching, leading, guiding and providing for us. Jesus called Himself the Good Shepherd, setting a model for all true spiritual leaders who lay down their lives for the sheep. When Jesus called Peter the second time after His resurrection, He asked him to "feed my sheep." Thus, pastors are to nurture people and help them to grow.

While the New Testament does not tell us specifically what pastors did, we do know that both men and women provided spiritual leadership for churches which met in their homes. In the early church, almost all Christian meetings were held in private homes. Among these house-church pastors was Mary, the mother of John Mark, who later became a missionary with the apostles Paul and Barnabas. It was to her house church that Peter came in Acts 12:12 after an angelic visitor set him free from prison. The Bible says that many had assembled there and were praying, no doubt petitioning God for Peter's release. Their prayers were answered!

Another house church leader was Chloe, according to I. Corinthians 1:11. In that passage, Paul relates that "some of Chloe's household " had reported that there was strife among the Corinthian Christians. Those Chloe sent with this message to Paul were probably Christians who were members of her house church. They may have been relatives or household servants, or they may have been Christians who lives in the area and gathered at her home for worship. These believers would have come under Chloe's spiritual guidance, care and protection. But Chloe's influence extended beyond her own flock. Evidently, she had sent a deputation from her house church to Paul, who knew her or knew of her, to inform him of the need for correction in the Corinthian church. She was a trusted leader and source of reliable information for the apostle Paul.


Hmm, let's see where we find that Chloe was a "woman-preacher" in the biblical text:


New International Version
My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you.

New Living Translation
For some members of Chloe's household have told me about your quarrels, my dear brothers and sisters.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers, by members of Chloe's household, that there is rivalry among you.

International Standard Version
My brothers, some members of Chloe's family have made it clear to me that there are quarrels among you.

NET Bible
For members of Chloe's household have made it clear to me, my brothers and sisters, that there are quarrels among you.



Ummm, where in these biblical texts can we actually read that Chloe is a "leader of a church"? This text simply states that some members of her family had reported to Paul regarding the factions in the Corinthian church - you know, that church whom specifically commanded:


New International Version
Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

New Living Translation
Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says.

English Standard Version
the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says.

New American Standard Bible
The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.

King James Bible
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says.

International Standard Version
the women must keep silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak out, but must place themselves in submission, as the oral law also says.

NET Bible
the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak. Rather, let them be in submission, as in fact the law says.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for they are not allowed to speak, but to be in subjection, just as The Written Law also says.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
the women must keep silent. They don't have the right to speak. They must take their place as Moses' Teachings say.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Let your women keep silence in the congregations {Gr. ekklesia � called out ones}, for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be in subjection, as also saith the law.

King James 2000 Bible
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be submissive, as also says the law.

American King James Version
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted to them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also said the law.

American Standard Version
let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Let women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith.

Darby Bible Translation
Let your women be silent in the assemblies, for it is not permitted to them to speak; but to be in subjection, as the law also says.

English Revised Version
Let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.

Webster's Bible Translation
Let your women keep silence in the churches; for it is not permitted to them to speak: but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Weymouth New Testament
Let married women be silent in the Churches, for they are not permitted to speak. They must be content with a subordinate place, as the Law also says;

World English Bible
let your wives keep silent in the assemblies, for it has not been permitted for them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as the law also says.

Young's Literal Translation
Your women in the assemblies let them be silent, for it hath not been permitted to them to speak, but to be subject, as also the law saith;






Acts 16:14-15, 40 tells us about Lydia, Paul's first European convert to Jesus, who offered Paul hospitality in her home. Scripture relates that when Lydia was converted, her entire household was baptized and that her home became the first meeting place for European Christians. Lydia was a business woman who traded in valuable, dyed garments. The fact that Scripture mentions no husband or father indicates the high prominence of this woman. Since first-century Greek and Roman women were almost always under the legal guardianship of a husband or father, Lydia may well have been a wealthy widow or only daughter who inherited her parents' estate. Thus, she became the head of her own household. She either managed the family business or developed a business of her own after her husband's or father's death.

The Book of Acts says that Lydia's entire household was baptized upon her conversion to Christ. This follows the custom of ancient Roman families. Under paganism, household gods were believed to protect and help the family and its enterprises. Thus, it was the duty of members of these households, relatives, slaves, and their families to worship the gods adopted by the head of the household.

Roman households were often large since almost all businesses were home-based before the industrial age. Those who worked for Lydia in her business, and possibly others engaging in the trade who belonged to the dye-makers guild, would have been among her converts. By virtue of her position as head of household, Lydia had the opportunity and responsibility to lead all of its members to Christ and then to establish and lead them in the faith. This put her in a similar position to the modern-day pastor. To fulfill part of this responsibility, Lydia invited Paul to come and preach in her home.



Cont......

[rdp]

Paul and Silas established their gospel mission headquarters in Lydia's house and no doubt preached there regularly. After their release from prison, Scripture tells us that they returned to Lydia's and, having met with the brethren, exhorted them. This may have been the first church planted on European soil, and its pastor was a woman.


14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. 15 And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, "If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay." And she prevailed upon us.....40 They went out of the prison and entered the house of Lydia, and when they saw the brethren, they encouraged them and departed.



Ummm, how on earth is this (woman ) writer extracting that Lydia was somehow a "woman-preacher" in the set-in office of the 5-fold ministry?? Where can we specifically read this in the biblical data above:__________? Guess what - We can't!


Another New Testament woman who led a house church was Nympha (Col. 4:15). Paul sent greetings to her and to the church at her house. Some modern scholars try to get around this by saying that Nympha was "just" the hostess, not the pastor. If that were so, who did pastor her house church, and why would Paul so rudely fail to greet the pastor as well as the hostess?


Colossians 4:15: "Please give my greetings to our brothers and sisters at Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church that meets in her house."


Once again, where can we extract from this biblical text that Nympha preached to men in the church? Can you please demonstrate this directly from the biblical text I have posted above:__________? So now every time some church members meet in a woman's home she is automatically in the 5-fold ministry ? It was "her home," not "her church."



Another woman house-pastor was Prisca, or Priscilla, as Paul often affectionately calls her. Romans 16:3-5 expresses his gratitude to her and her husband, Aquilla. This couple had a team ministry and worked with Paul in planting the gospel in Rome, Corinth and Ephesus. In his Roman letter, Paul sends greetings to the church that met in their house, which they pastored together.


Umm, I've already provided the careful lexical data for this passage, but, true to form, you'll just keep copy-pasting your commentary all the while ignoring the inspired biblical data. But, hey, let's try it again:


Romans 16.3-5: "Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus. In fact, they once risked their lives for me. I am thankful to them, and so are all the Gentile churches. Also give my greetings to the church that meets in their home. Greet my dear friend Epenetus. He was the first person from the province of Asia to become a follower of Christ."


Please demonstrate from the biblical texts above specifically where we can actually read where Prisca is said to be in a leadership position in the church:__________? Guess what?....Not there (& never will be).


Here's the actual lexical definition for the Greek adjective translated "fellow worker" above: "in the N. T. with a genitive of the person, one who labors with another in furthering the cause of Christ." Nothing in this Greek adjective about "preaching" or "teaching" in any way, shape or form. That "meaning" is supplied by the "woman-preacher" - not the Bible standing alone.


It has often been pointed out by Greek scholars that Paul's practice of mentioning Prisca's name before that of her husband emphasizes that she was the more prominent leader. Just as today we would address a letter "Mr. and Mrs.," so in ancient times, the husband's name was customarily given before the wife's. Prisca must have been an outstanding Christian worker for Paul to have reversed custom by honoring her in this way.


Oh my goodness - Can you not see how ultra-contrary this is the biblical headship role?? Now God was validating that the woman should be the spiritual "leader" over her husband - all because her name is mentioned first in the text? Are you aware of the many verses which mention Aquila's name first?


I Cor. 16.19: "The churches in the province of Asia send you greetings. Aquila and Priscilla greet you warmly in the Lord, and so does the church that meets at their house.


Does this mean they were flip-flopping back & forth over "leadership" with each new passage, all depending on whose name was mentioned "first" ??



Cont.....

[rdp]

The brief, personal letter II John is addressed to a church and its pastor, a woman with whom the apostle John evidently had warm ties. John opens the letter, "to the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth. . ." "Children" was a term of endearment that John used for Christian believers. (I. John 2:1, 12, 18, 28). "Truth" was a term John often used in his writings for the revelation of Jesus (See, for example, John 1:14, 17; 8:32; 16:13; I. John 1:6-8; 2:4, 21; 3:19; II. John 4; III John 3-4.) The word "elect," while it usually refers to believers as chosen by God for salvation, can also be used to refer to the ordained clergy. The second-century church father Clement of Alexandria does this repeatedly in his Stromata book 6, chapter 13. John's use of these terms plus the general tone of the letter with its pastoral direction as in verse 10 demonstrate that II John was written to a Christian church, not just a family.

While scholars agree that II John was addressed to a church, most balk at the idea that the "elect lady" was its pastor. They try to get around this by spiritualizing these terms, saying that they are metaphors for the church. This approach ignores the universal Greek practice of naming a letter's recipient(s) at the beginning. Without an addressee or location, it cannot explain to whom or how the letter was delivered. It also ignores the plain sense of the text. Additionally, its logic is inconsistent because if both the "lady" and the "children" stand for the church, how could the letter be written to "the church and the church?" If so, to which church is it written? No one writes a letter to a symbol but to a real person or group.

Interestingly, both of the Greek words in II John 1 which are ordinarily translated into English as "elect" and "lady" were also used in the first century as women's names just as today we might name a girl "grace" or "Missy." A number of Greek manuscripts of II John 1 use initial capitals for either or both of these words, indicating personal usage.

In the second century, Clement of Alexandria identified the "elect lady" as a specific individual. He wrote that II John "was written to virgins. It was written to a Babylonian lady by name Electa." (Clement of Alexandria, Fragments from Cassiodorus IV, 1-2 tr. by William Wilson, Fathers of the Second Century, A. Cleveland Coxe, ed., New York: The Christian Literature Publishing Company, 1885, vol. 2, p. 576.) Although he does not elaborate, it appears from this statement that Clement had heard of this woman and knew that she was the spiritual leader of virgins. Why he called her Babylonian is a mystery since Babylon had ceased to be a nation many generations earlier. Perhaps she was of Babylonian descent or came from pagan Rome, which Christians often derisively called "Babylon." Electa may have been the leader of an order of Christian virgins, or Clement may have assumed that her followers were virgins because of the growing emphasis on asceticism in his day, a half-century after the letter was written.

During the early and medieval periods of church history, it was very common for devout women to dedicate their homes for Christian worship and to attract other similarly minded people to join them. Usually, the converts who came under the pastoral care of such women were household members or women colleagues. In Electa's case, if Clement is correct, they were dedicated Christian virgins who constituted one of the order of the clergy in the ancient church along with widows.

This brief letter closes by conveying a greeting from the church of another woman-"the children of your elect sister greet you." This woman was evidently their pastor since John again uses the term "children" which in his writings means Christians under the care of a spiritual leader. Also, he calls her "elect" which either means ordained or chosen.

An interesting possibility exists that these two women pastors were natural sisters as well as sisters in the Lord and in His work. We know from the late third and early fourth century church historian Eusebius that in his later years, the apostle Philip and two of his four daughters who were prophetesses lived at Hierapolis in Asia. A third daughter lived in Ephesus, the city where John preached. Unlike the other apostles who were martyred decades earlier, the apostle John lived to a very old age, possibly over 100 years. Close ties existed between John, the church at Ephesus, and Philip and his daughters. It is possible that after Philip's death, John wrote his second epistle to one of Philip's surviving daughters still ministering at Hierapolis (the "elect lady" or "Lady Electa") and conveyed greetings from her sister's church at Ephesus. If so, we have in II John evidence that these daughters of Philip established and led Christian communities.

The fourth-century church historian Eusebius quotes a letter written by Polycrates, bishop of Ephesus, to Victor, bishop of Rome between 189-198 AD. "For in Asia, also, mighty luminaries have fallen asleep, which shall rise again at the last day, at the appearance of our Lord, when he shall come with glory from heaven, and shall gather again all the saints. Philip, one of the twelve apostles who sleeps in Hierapolis, and his two aged virgin daughters. Another of his daughters, who lived in the Holy Spirit, rests at Ephesus. Moreover, John, that rested on the bosom of our Lord, who was a priest that bore the sacerdotal plate, and martyr and teacher, he also rests at Ephesus." Quite possibly, the "elect lady" and her "elect sister" of II John are two of these "mighty luminaries" who "lived in the Holy Spirit" and whom Polycrates and Eusebius commemorated. (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, book III, chapter. xxxi tr. by Christian Frederick Cruse, Grand Rapids, MI; Baker Book House, 1955, p. 116.)



"The elder to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth" (2 John 1.1). The Greek adjective translated "chosen" (ἐκλεκτός) above is defined as: "Typically, 1588 /eklektós ("select, chosen") describes people who choose to follow the Lord, i.e. become God's choice by freely receiving faith (4102 /pístis) from Him" (http://biblehub.com/greek/1588.htm).


Specifically where can we read anything about this lady "preaching-teaching" men in either the biblical text or the actual Greek parsing of this term:__________?


Once again, more speculation absolutely devoid of demonstration from the biblical text itself .


New International Version
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

New Living Translation
I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly.

English Standard Version
I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

New American Standard Bible
But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

King James Bible
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to be silent.

International Standard Version
Moreover, in the area of teaching, I am not allowing a woman to instigate conflict toward a man. Instead, she is to remain calm.

NET Bible
But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. She must remain quiet.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For I do not allow a woman to teach, neither to usurp over a man, but she should be quiet;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
I don't allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. Instead, she should be quiet.

Jubilee Bible 2000
For I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a mature man, but to be at rest.

King James 2000 Bible
But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have authority over the man, but to be in silence.

American King James Version
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

American Standard Version
But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.

Darby Bible Translation
but I do not suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over man, but to be in quietness;

English Revised Version
But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.

Webster's Bible Translation
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Weymouth New Testament
I do not permit a woman to teach, nor have authority over a man, but she must remain silent.

World English Bible
But I don't permit a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness.


Still there _ & always will be despite how much y'all tamper with it to render it ineffective. Y'all should be plumb ashamed of yourselves & need to repent for tampering with God's Word like this - but I won't hold my breath (the nature of rebellion is to scoff & continue in defiance).

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Romans 16:1 Paul commends to the church at Rome our sister Phoebe who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea. Paul refers to Phoebe as a servant which is the Greek word diakonos. Diakonos, or its verb form, is translated minister in 23 other places in the New Testament. For example, in Eph. 3:7, Paul says that he became a minister (diakonos) according to the gift of the grace of God. Phoebe, therefore, was a minister, probably a pastor, from the church in Cenchrea. This is borne out by vs. 2 where Paul refers to her as a helper of many and of myself also. The Greek word translated helper in this verse is prostates and, according to Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon, means to set over, to rule, superintend, preside over, protect, and care for.


Ummm, did you not read the mountains & mountains of lexical evidences & translations I provided already? Do you just plod along with your fingers stuck in your ears like it doesn't exist - all the while expecting me to chase your copy-pate comments all over the place (which have been refuted over & over & over)?


Sigh - let's try this one more time :


"that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well."



Here's the portion of Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon you omitted from your definition: "b. a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources (A. V. succourer): Romans 16:2. http://biblehub.com/greek/4368.htm


How disingenuous to leave out the definition Thayer applied to the very passage under consideration....Plumb shameful!



When this passage is examined apart from our traditions and prejudicial assumptions, the evidence is overwhelming that Phoebe functioned in what today we would call pastoral ministry.

LOL - Now the Apostle Paul had Phoebe for a "ruler" & "pastor" ! The anti-biblical "traditions and prejudicial assumptions" are coming from the "women-preacher" camp - not God's Word. What "evidence" you think you've offered I have no idea ?


Funny how anti-biblical commentary equals supposed "evidence" (even when it's demonstrated to be completely erroneous) & yet the Bible itself is erased & explained away to make it mean something other than what it plainly says .

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

In verses 3-5 of the same chapter, Paul refers to Priscilla and Aquila and the church that is in their house. Priscilla and Aquila are always mentioned together in Scripture which indicates that they worked and ministered together as a husband and wife team. This is confirmed by Acts 18:26 where both Priscilla and Aquila took Apollos aside and both explained to him the way of God more accurately. In the Greek, Priscilla is always mentioned first. Since Paul reversed the culturally accepted manner of mentioning the husband first, he obviously wanted to make a point about her leadership role. Many commentators conclude that Priscilla is mentioned first because she was the spiritually gifted one and the leader of the church that met in their home. Again, the evidence is overwhelming. Priscilla functioned as a pastor.

Wrong again! Here's the actual Greek text of I Corinthians 16:19: Ἀσπάζονται ὑμᾶς αἱ ἐκκλησίαι τῆς Ἀσίας. ἀσπάζεται ὑμᾶς ἐν Κυρίῳ πολλὰ Ἀκύλας (Aquila) καὶ (And) Πρίσκα (Prisca) σὺν τῇ κατ’ οἶκον αὐτῶν ἐκκλησίᾳ.


No Sister Alvear, Priscilla is NOT always mentioned first - In fact she is mentioned secondly almost the same number of times she is mentioned first! You have been caught once again making erroneous claims - but I "prohesy" that you'll simply ignore the actual biblical texts & continue copy-pasting the same erroneous info. !


And, what "evidence" you think you've presented is beyond me? False information? Absolutely - "biblical "evidence" - Umm, not so much .


http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/16-19.htm

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Another person's veiw...I see the scripture talking about the home however I am open to other veiws...What About 1 Timothy 2:11-12?


No Sister Alvear, I Timothy is NOT "talking about the home" & Paul explicitly said he was addressing church-order: "I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church" (I Timothy 3.15). Ignore it all you want - The evidence militates against what you "believe" about this passage.





"But,” some will ask, “What about Paul's admonitions in I Corinthians 14:34 and I Timothy 2:12 for women to be silent?" For the sake of space, we will look at 1 Tim. 2:11-12 which many consider to be the Bible’s clearest statement against women functioning in leadership. It says, Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. On the surface and out of context, this passage sounds quite clear in its restriction of women.


Yes, it IS "quite clear" & the author here concedes that this is the most straight-forward reading of this biblical text - yet he/she attempts to render it ineffective below (with poor "exegesis").


But a different picture emerges when we consider four simple exegetical facts.


The writer does not even employ "exegesis" below?? He/She (I'm thinking the latter ) is mistaking their theology for so-called "exegesis." Exegesis involves syntax, lexical data, phrasing, diagramming, etc. - NONE of which he/she employs below ??


1 Timothy Was Written To An Individual, Not To A Church

First of all, the letter of 1 Timothy was written to an individual, not to a church. We should expect, therefore, that the things written in the letter are related to the situation of the individual, i.e. Timothy, to whom it was written. It is a “personal” letter.


Umm, it was letter to a young preacher regarding church-order? And?? Titus was also written to an individual? Thought I read "All Scripture is....profitable for doctrine" ! The author is simply beginning his/her fancy-footwork on the biblical text to render the "quite clear restriction" ineffective. They should repent & believe what the Bible clearly says - Have they no fear of God in their hearts??



1 Timothy Addresses A Personal, Local Situation in Ephesus

Secondly, vs. 3 of chpt. 1 clearly states the reason for this letter to Timothy. It is not to lay down a universal system of church order. It is to encourage and instruct him as he deals with a false teaching that is circulating among the Christians in Ephesus where he is located.

This requires rightly dividing the word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15). Paul obviously was not issuing universal edicts for all churches of every time and place. He is addressing unique issues related to Timothy and the church in Ephesus.

Another popular false claim by the "woman-preacher" camp. I guess women can now dress immodestly & deck out in costly apparel since this was only addressing some (mythical) "false teachings" exclusively in Ephesus ??


I guess no one in the church today has to believe in the deity of Jesus Christ (I Timothy 3.16) either since this was merely something written to address a particular situation in Ephesus?? Paul's basis of appeal was the order of creation in the garden of Eden - which concerns EVERYONE in the church.


Sorry Sis., this simply more false information in an attempt to render the Word of God ineffective.



A Strange Greek Word

That Paul is addressing a unique situation in Ephesus is further borne out by the fact that the word “authority” in 2:12 is a translation of the Greek word authentein which is found only here in the entire New Testament. If Paul is here giving a universal edict for church order, why doesn’t he use the normal word for authority, exousia, which he and all other New Testament writers use. Why does he here use a word that neither he nor any other New Testament writer ever uses--a word that refers to someone who claims to be the author or originator of something.

The obvious answer is that Paul is here dealing with the unique situation that exists in Ephesus. If Paul had been giving a universal rule for church order in this passage, he would have used the normal New Testament word for authority.


Paul also uses a word a few verses up in the same chapter that is only used once in the entire Bible. In verse 9 he states that women should dress in modest "apparel" (καταστολή). Using the logic above now women can dress in immodest "apparel" since Paul only used this word "once" ?? Silly.


The Greek verb translated "authority" in 2.12 defines as "to domineer (remember this next time you attempt to place Phoebe as one who has "rule over" Paul ) or have mastery over" - which Paul ties into the ministry & forbids women to practice "in the church" (3.15).


Sorry Sis., this dodge will not work either .


Paul May Have Been Addressing A Particular Woman in Ephesus

Fourthly, this view is borne out by the fact that there is a change from the plural to the singular and then back to the plural in this passage. In vss. 9-10 of chpt. 2, Paul refers to “women” in the plural. But when he comes to the restrictive admonition of vss. 11-12, he changes to the singular and refers to “a woman.” Afterwards, in vs. 15, he returns again to the plural. This may indicate that, in writing this passage, Paul had a particular woman in mind who was primarily responsible for spreading the false teaching in Ephesus. Be that as it may, Paul, in this passage, is obviously addressing a unique, local situation in the city of Ephesus.


Ahhh yes, the ol' "singular vs. plural" argument. Problem is, the singular-plural has absolutely no baring on what is going on in the Greek text - which is why virtually every-single translation has placed an indefinite article preceding the Greek noun "woman" indicating ANY woman (here's the actual Greek text: http://biblehub.com/text/1_timothy/2-12.htm). Below is a relevant email on this very topic from renowned exegete-grammarian Dr. Douglas Moo:


"I think that you are basically on the right track. One certainly cannot insist on continual action in a present infinitive (in vs. 12), for instance; and, of course the NLT rendering of the plurals is irrelevant to what is going on in the Greek".


NLT: "I do not let women teach men (plural) or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly."


More unbiblical speculation without biblical demonstration .



So, who says women can’t pastor? Not Jesus! Not Paul! And not the New Testament!

Umm, that would be the Apostle Paul & the NT writers - the author simply refuses to believe what the Bible "clearly restricts" (their own words ).

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sasha

RDP, Sis. Alvear is sick with pneumonia. Will you be praying for her today? Will you have your church pray for her today?

Yes, I will gladly pray for her today - been praying for her already.