Beginning Water & Spirit Doctrine - Page 2

Disciple4life · #11 03-19-2014, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obriencp

A good friend of mine has a very long thread on this very subject. Click if you're interested... a lot of info being thrown around. Can be hard to follow.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=45061

The thread started out with my initial questions. Then it got bogged down and sidetracked.

I was asking about the history of when we ask Pentecostals used John 3 as our backup verse. First Acts 2:38 then if anyone wants to question our belief we say well Jesus said you have to be born again in John 3.

Disciple4life · #12 03-19-2014, 03:16 PM

I believe in Acts 2:38. I believe everybody should repent be baptized in Jesus name and receive the Holy Ghost by the evidence of tongues.

But why do we always go back to John 3. Look at all the verses that say John baptized with water but Jesus will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said in Acts 1:4-5

Being assembled together with them, he charged them, "Don`t depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which you heard from me.
5 For John indeed baptized with water, but you will be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Also in the New Testament the term Kingdom of God/Heaven is used 99 times. But we are obsessed with it being use twice in John3.

KeptByTheWord · #13 03-19-2014, 03:38 PM

There is obviously more than one baptism, as Hebrews 6 says not laying again the foundation of "baptisms" ... plural. Baptism by water, and baptism in the spirit.

It is very important to note that Jesus' earthly ministry did not begin until he was baptized by John, and then the Holy Spirit descended upon Him. Jesus was baptized by water, and by the Holy Spirit, as an example for all believers.

For the apostles, there is no record of how they themselves were baptized, so we know it was not a simultaneous experience (both water and spirit occurring at the same time). No doubt they were baptized unto Jesus during the earthly ministry of Jesus, and later went on to be spirit baptized on the Day of Pentecost, (obviously because the Holy Spirit could not come upon them until the time appointed).

Today, we know that being baptized in water, and receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit can be a single event with both water and spirit baptism happening together, or they can take place separately, but regardless.... if one wants to be a part of the body of Christ, a baptism of both water, and spirit is necessary to truly become part of the body of Christ, according to the doctrine of the apostles, and exampled by Jesus himself.

navygoat1998 · #14 03-19-2014, 03:40 PM

My church last Sunday morning!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOl70e5WlA8

Disciple4life · #15 03-19-2014, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by navygoat1998

My church last Sunday morning!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOl70e5WlA8

Beautiful! I don't care what name is on the sign outside.

Disciple4life · #16 03-19-2014, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

There is obviously more than one baptism, as Hebrews 6 says not laying again the foundation of "baptisms" ... plural. Baptism by water, and baptism in the spirit.

It is very important to note that Jesus' earthly ministry did not begin until he was baptized by John, and then the Holy Spirit descended upon Him. Jesus was baptized by water, and by the Holy Spirit, as an example for all believers.

For the apostles, there is no record of how they themselves were baptized, so we know it was not a simultaneous experience (both water and spirit occurring at the same time). No doubt they were baptized unto Jesus during the earthly ministry of Jesus, and later went on to be spirit baptized on the Day of Pentecost, (obviously because the Holy Spirit could not come upon them until the time appointed).

Today, we know that being baptized in water, and receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit can be a single event with both water and spirit baptism happening together, or they can take place separately, but regardless.... if one wants to be a part of the body of Christ, a baptism of both water, and spirit is necessary to truly become part of the body of Christ, according to the doctrine of the apostles, and exampled by Jesus himself.

So the argument goes that you can not base everything on one scripture. Why do we base everything on John 3?

justlookin · #17 03-19-2014, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disciple4life

So the argument goes that you can not base everything on one scripture. Why do we base everything on John 3?

Well, it's based on only part of John 3. In other words, it's not based on these John 3 scriptures:

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Rather it's based on one section of John 3 while ignoring those scriptures above:

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Your question of why everything is based on John 3 isn't a valid question. The question is, why is everything based on just a few scriptures of John 3 while ignoring the others.

I don't have an answer to that.

Disciple4life · #18 03-19-2014, 05:05 PM

In the Pentecostal Herald December of 1945 it was stated-

Article on such subjects as "The New Birth" will be accepted whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consist of baptism of water and spirit.

This is in the section Our Paper The Pentecostal Herald by Oscar Vouga. It is on page six and in the third paragraph of the article.

In 1945 you could hold either view. You could even submit an article to the Pentecostal Herald as long as it was not in the spirit of controversy.

My, My, How times have changes!

KeptByTheWord · #19 03-19-2014, 05:05 PM

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

If Jesus' earthly ministry did not begin until he was baptized in water, with the Holy Spirit baptism descending upon Him, then why should we think it would be any different for us as believers?

I don't believe this is basing everything on "one scripture". There are a multitude of scriptures to correlate together that Jesus himself was baptized in water, and received the Holy Spirit. There are multiple scriptures that show that baptism in water took place, and that infilling of the spirit also took place in believers throughout the NT.

I do believe that the evidence of the infilling of the spirit should not rest only in "tongues", but ALSO in the fruit of the spirit. Tongues can and mostly are a sign of the indwelling of the spirit in one's life, but the fruit of the spirit remain the real test as to whether a life has the spirit indwelling it.... or not.

KeptByTheWord · #20 03-19-2014, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disciple4life

In the Pentecostal Herald December of 1945 it was stated-

Article on such subjects as "The New Birth" will be accepted whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consist of baptism of water and spirit.

This is in the section Our Paper The Pentecostal Herald by Oscar Vouga. It is on page six and in the third paragraph of the article.

In 1945 you could hold either view. You could even submit an article to the Pentecostal Herald as long as it was not in the spirit of controversy.

My, My, How times have changes!

Looking at the physical example of how Jesus was water baptized, and then received the baptism of the Holy Spirit before his earthly ministry begins, is a very clear picture of how it is for the believer also, without trying to read more or less into it through various scriptures.

If water baptism isn't necessary, why was Jesus baptized by John?
If spirit baptism isn't necessary, then for what purpose did the Holy Spirit descend on Jesus?

In all reality, the act of Jesus being baptized, and the Holy Spirit descending upon him, correlating to the beginning of his earthly ministry, paints a very clear picture for the rest of believers to follow.