Holinisness is not....

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

Not true Adam Eveand the Angels all were created free from a fallen nature but they were all tempted and fell.

True. However, you're assuming a false dichotomy.

There is sin nature (corrupted state)
There is carnality or the carnal nature, which is largely "natural".
There is divine nature which is of sinless divine origin, God's own being.

Adam & Eve were governed by a non-fallen carnal nature. They still desired that which they perceived they didn't have. Adam still desired a mate. Etc. Sometimes a thing that is "carnal" is simply that which isn't spiritual. It's "natural". The desire for a mate isn't sinful, but it is natural. It is a carnal desire. You see, they went from being natural sinless beings... to becoming sinful natural beings, sin corrupting the very core of their nature.

So... while Adam & Eve, and the angels, didn't have a fallen nature prior...they also didn't have the opportunity to partake in the divine nature as we do through the Holy Spirit.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

Notice it is not just a promise for a clean spirit and soul but the body/flesh can be cleansed.

Amen, something only needs to be routinely cleansed if it is capable of getting dirty.

I think we mean two different things when we speak of perfection in this context. When I speak of perfection, I mean absolute Christlikeness in our entire being... being incapable of death, not being subject to disease, hormonal imbalances, depression, etc. I mean being in a glorified and holy position wherein it is impossible to sin, and the very inclination to sin is removed from one's entire nature.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by endtimer

I agree. Following the parable of the sower, we must have ground that is ready to receive and nourish a seed of temptation for it to grow. A spirit-led person is not friendly ground to this type of seed.

Amen!

However, a negligent born again believer who isn't being led of the Spirit may allow the carnal nature of their flesh to get the best of them, giving into it's desires and thereby reaping the repercussions of sin.

[Aquila]

Luke... I do fear that you've fallen for a number of the errors taught by the Pelagianist heresy.

We could go on and on. Greater minds that the two of ours have throughout the centuries.

So, let's agree to disagree. You may feel free to believe that you have no carnal or sinful nature in your flesh or mind and that you can live in absolute perfection. You can even believe that you're glorified and can float through walls if you want to. That's entirely between you and God.

I'm going to believe that I've partaken in the divine nature of the Holy Spirit in my inner man (my spirit). And that my flesh is still rather fallen and carnal; subject to sinful temptations, biologic conditions, disease, and even death. Now, yes, the sinful nature's bondage over my entire being has been destroyed in that my spirit is now free through the Holy Spirit. And now, I can overcome the sinful desires and lusts of the flesh by walking in the abiding Spirit of God who now indwells my own spirit.

[Aquila]

I'm reminded of a passage in Galatians:

Galatians 5:16-25
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

The sinful lusts of the flesh are still with us. Why? Because the nature of our flesh is still fallen and carnal. We are called to overcome the inherent sinful tendencies of the flesh by walking in the Spirit.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

True. However, you're assuming a false dichotomy.

There is sin nature (corrupted state)
There is carnality or the carnal nature, which is largely "natural".
There is divine nature which is of sinless divine origin, God's own being.

Adam & Eve were governed by a non-fallen carnal nature. They still desired that which they perceived they didn't have. Adam still desired a mate. Etc. Sometimes a thing that is "carnal" is simply that which isn't spiritual. It's "natural". The desire for a mate isn't sinful, but it is natural. It is a carnal desire. You see, they went from being natural sinless beings... to becoming sinful natural beings, sin corrupting the very core of their nature.

So... while Adam & Eve, and the angels, didn't have a fallen nature prior...they also didn't have the opportunity to partake in the divine nature as we do through the Holy Spirit.

By this definition of a carnal nature Jesus had a carnal nature. When He was tempted of the devil He was hungry because He had been fasting and hadnt had any foor for 40 days and by His being hungry He wanted what He didnt have "FOOD". Also on the cross He spoke of thirst oops there goes that carnality again He wanted what He didnt have "SOMETHING TO DRINK". This is not carnality this natural to want what is good for you and for what God approves.

[endtimer]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Amen! However, a negligent born again believer who isn't being led of the Spirit may allow the carnal nature of their flesh to get the best of them, giving into it's desires and thereby reaping the repercussions of sin.

Could not agree more... Wow, the stories I could share about the types who depend on habit, traditions and church culture to give them a sense of "spiritual" security. They are as beautifully painted graves, full of dead men's bones. I find a better law though. The law of the Spirit. A law that leads to life, revelation, sometimes confronts my own traditions and perceptions but ultimately grants me freedom from sin.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Luke... I do fear that you've fallen for a number of the errors taught by the Pelagianist heresy.

We could go on and on. Greater minds that the two of ours have throughout the centuries.

So, let's agree to disagree. You may feel free to believe that you have no carnal or sinful nature in your flesh or mind and that you can live in absolute perfection. You can even believe that you're glorified and can float through walls if you want to. That's entirely between you and God.

I'm going to believe that I've partaken in the divine nature of the Holy Spirit in my inner man (my spirit). And that my flesh is still rather fallen and carnal; subject to sinful temptations, biologic conditions, disease, and even death. Now, yes, the sinful nature's bondage over my entire being has been destroyed in that my spirit is now free through the Holy Spirit. And now, I can overcome the sinful desires and lusts of the flesh by walking in the abiding Spirit of God who now indwells my own spirit.

I disagree with pelagianism on many fronts.

He taught there was no sinful nature resulting from the fall.

He taught that all mankind are born righteous and pure and stay this way until they sin.

he taught that mankind could simply choose to be saved.

He taught that man could in his own strenght overcome sin.

All of these things are heretical and i would thourghly disagree with them all among other of his teachings.

Also i never said that absolute perfection was available to us ever rather we can throught Jesus attain christian perfection.

I also never stated that a person could ever reach a place where they were free from temptaion or from the ability to sin.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

I disagree with pelagianism on many fronts.

He taught there was no sinful nature resulting from the fall.

He taught that all mankind are born righteous and pure and stay this way until they sin.

he taught that mankind could simply choose to be saved.

He taught that man could in his own strenght overcome sin.

All of these things are heretical and i would thourghly disagree with them all among other of his teachings.

I didn't say that you totally embraced pelagianism. I said,

I do fear that you've fallen for a number of the errors taught by the Pelagianist heresy.

Also i never said that absolute perfection was available to us ever rather we can throught Jesus attain christian perfection.

For the most part we agree on this. However, I see the overcoming as progressive as one learns to walk in the Spirit and comes to a deeper understanding of Christ's righteousness, the process ending in eternal glorification at the return of Christ.

Where we disagree is... what we overcome in order to attain Christian perfection. You believe that we only overcome the outside influences of Satan and that we are entirely free of the sinful and carnal nature. I believe that while yes, we must overcome outside influences of Satan, we also must overcome the inherent sinful/carnal nature of our un-regenerated flesh and mind.

I also never stated that a person could ever reach a place where they were free from temptaion or from the ability to sin.

It's my opinion that you contradict yourself here. If the entire sinful/carnal nature has been destroyed... nothing the enemy could throw at us would appeal. Clearly there is yet an un-regenerated part of us that can be enticed or tempted to sin. I see this as being in the flesh and our carnal mind. We must overcome the fallen flesh and the carnal mind (which is death) through renewing the mind and mortifying the sinful desires and impulses of the flesh. I also include our entire biology (hormones, genetics, etc.) in the term "the flesh".

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

By this definition of a carnal nature Jesus had a carnal nature. When He was tempted of the devil He was hungry because He had been fasting and hadnt had any foor for 40 days and by His being hungry He wanted what He didnt have "FOOD". Also on the cross He spoke of thirst oops there goes that carnality again He wanted what He didnt have "SOMETHING TO DRINK". This is not carnality this natural to want what is good for you and for what God approves.

Yes, Jesus did have a "normal" human nature. Carnal, prone to temptation, yet without sin (as did Adam). Jesus simply overcame the flesh (as we're called to do) through the Spirit (as we're called to do). I don't believe in divine flesh doctrine.

Carnal can be defined as follows:

Definition of carnal (adj)

Bing Dictionary
car·nal
[ káarn'l ]
1.relating to physical needs: relating to somebody's physical needs or appetites, especially as contrasted with spiritual or intellectual qualities
2.sensual: sensual or sexual
3.relating to body: relating to or consisting of the body

Jesus had normal human appetites and desires in every category. However, He didn't surrender to those that were sinful or not conducive to His redemptive mission. Not everything that is "carnal" equals "sin". However, all sin is carnal.