Oneness Questions

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sean

Prax, I dont even know what unitarianism is...You guys have a bad habit of labeling each other with some weird philosophies on this Forum (I see it everywhere)...that is nothing but condiscending. My "revelation" comes from debate tapes and wondering how certain scriptures must have a oneness application ,that look like theres a trinity to me.

Luke could probably spank many of you guys in a debate here. (I havent seen anyone stand up to him). I dare somebody here to challenge him to a debate.


Unless you guys are intimidated.......

Unitarianism is the doctrine that the Father and Son are two different persons. The Father is God and the Son is not.

Labels are not bad. Learn to read them and you can eat more healthy

Unitarianism is as old as Trinitarianism.

You haven't been here long. Go to the Debate forum. I have debated everyone.

[Sean]

K, now I know thanks...just wondering though, how do you know that "unitarianism" is not correct? I have never looked into it at all. Is there an authority that provides "labels" that oversees what people believe?

You know, like psychology , they start talking to you and before long they "categorize" you as such and such.

The psychologist is the"authority" over us these days.

Who is the "authority" over religious beliefs?

If they "label" micro-beliefs they must have the "smartest ones" generating these labels. And obviously, they have "complete" truth.



I betcha, the truth be told, we just "label" or "categorize" each other because we disagree with someones beliefs. It makes us "look" like we know something and they do not. "Condescending"....


My friend and I were debating a room full of brothers in the church over the Law last year and one of them started calling us MARCIONITES...HERETICS... I said "who is that?" and he told us that we were following the "heretic" Marcion. I just said the first thing that comes to mind..."does the Bible label him as a heretic"? He said , "no, he just is".

My friend of 25 years conveniently swept our argument under the rug by saying we are "marcionites' and I had no clue what the man(Marcion) believed. Never even heard the name!

I am just as guilty of doing this as others, but it is not the way to figure out what the INDIVIDUAL belief of someone really is....

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sean

K, now I know thanks...just wondering though, how do you know that "unitarianism" is not correct?

The biblke

I have never looked into it at all. Is there an authority that provides "labels" that oversees what people believe?

History of use, dictionaries

You know, like psychology , they start talking to you and before long they "categorize" you as such and such.

That's not the same thing. You are a human. That's a label.

The psychologist is the"authority" over us these days.

What does that have to do with this topic?

Who is the "authority" over religious beliefs?

The Pope if you are catholic

If they "label" micro-beliefs they must have the "smartest ones" generating these labels. And obviously, they have "complete" truth.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Are you a Christian? That's a label. Labels are not evil.

I betcha, the truth be told, we just "label" or "categorize" each other because we disagree with someones beliefs. It makes us "look" like we know something and they do not. "Condescending"....

I don't have a problem being labeled according to what I believe. When JWs come to my door they say "Hi, we are Jehovah's Witnesses". It lets me know who they are. Labels are not evil. Don't fear the label

My friend and I were debating a room full of brothers in the church over the Law last year and one of them started calling us MARCIONITES...HERETICS... I said "who is that?" and he told us that we were following the "heretic" Marcion. I just said the first thing that comes to mind..."does the Bible label him as a heretic"? He said , "no, he just is".

Unitarian isn't a slur. It's a category defining what someone believes. I didn't call you a heretic

My friend of 25 years conveniently swept our argument under the rug by saying we are "marcionites' and I had no clue what the man(Marcion) believed. Never even heard the name!

Find out and you will know what a Marcionite is and whether you are one or not

I am just as guilty of doing this as others, but it is not the way to figure out what the INDIVIDUAL belief of someone really is....

I don't feel guilt because there is nothing wrong with using labels. Like I said, next time you eat, read the label.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

It's not troubling. It's just that two persons, one is God and the other is not, is Unitarianism not Oneness.

Not really... in Unitarianism they stop with God being divine and Jesus being merely human. In what I'm talking about, the divine person of God and the human person of Jesus are "one" (in spiritual union). They share and partake in one another's being and nature. Jesus becomes not only the human tabernacle of God... but a living extension of God Himself. In addition, the "human person" of Jesus is the very image and likeness of God's own person, in full humanity of course. Jesus put it this way:

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)

John 17:10
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. (KJV)

Notice, this view is actually "oneness". Some people are stretching the term out of it's true definition. Some are demanding that it mean "singularity". However, "oneness" expresses a "singularity" or "union" between two or more things. In Christ, we see "oneness" between God and the man Jesus Christ. A "oneness" so complete that they partake in one another's nature, being, and even person (shared thoughts). Therefore, it can be said that in Christ, God became a man. And that the man Jesus Christ, is also God.

[Sean]

Prax, the point I was making is if we "label" ourselves, its ok...you know we call ourselves 3 steppers, others can too. But comparing us to some unknown persons of centuries ago with only "similarities" in beliefs, is a cop out. We cant run, duck and hide from EVERY belief in the world. There is (some) truth in most religions. I cant go around studying every teaching that people believe or believed in the past and "separate" myself from them all. I just study the Bible and say what makes sense to me, with a little help from the brethren I trust that teach what I believe to be the truth.)



BTW...we dealt with the "labeler" friend last year in those debates and he agreed it was counterproductive and apologized to the group. Im in no way suggesting that here, but this man realized he was being "closed minded" to the discussion at hand.

[Aquila]

Please note, whenever I say that God was "in Christ" or that Christ is the "human tabernacle of God", I do not mean that God was in Christ as one abiding in a separate vessel, like a man sitting in a car. I'm saying that God's very essence is in inseparable union with the very essence of the Son making them a single expression of deity manifest in humanity. The two (Father and Son) are inseparable, yet distinct.

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

Sit back and imagine hanging out with Jesus as one of the disciples. You'd be observing a man... one who is clearly a man... yet you'd sense that this man is also... God. And while on most occasions He'd speak as a man who loved His Heavenly Father and faithfully prayed to His Heavenly Father... there would also be times wherein He would speak from the divine prerogative as though He were His Heavenly Father. You might even begin to get goose-bumps when Jesus was beginning to teach and got "the look"... or what you've come to know as "the God look". You'd sense that this wasn't merely a man. He is a man who is also God.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Please note, whenever I say that God was "in Christ" or that Christ is the "human tabernacle of God", I do not mean that God was in Christ as one abiding in a separate vessel, like a man sitting in a car. I'm saying that God's very essence is in inseparable union with the very essence of the Son making them a single expression of deity manifest in humanity. The two (Father and Son) are inseparable, yet distinct.

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

Sit back and imagine hanging out with Jesus as one of the disciples. You'd be observing a man... one who is clearly a man... yet you'd sense that this man is also... God. And while on most occasions He'd speak as a man who loved His Heavenly Father and faithfully prayed to His Heavenly Father... there would also be times wherein He would speak from the divine prerogative as though He were His Heavenly Father. You might even begin to get goose-bumps when Jesus was beginning to teach and got "the look"... or what you've come to know as "the God look". You'd sense that this wasn't merely a man. He is a man who is also God.

Brother, your threads are always a "breath of fresh air' to me...I really enjoy reading them....may the Lord Jesus bless you today.


If I could compare you to someone in the Bible it would be John. I sense the love of our Lord in your threads....

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

It's not troubling. It's just that two persons, one is God and the other is not, is Unitarianism not Oneness.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Not really... in Unitarianism they stop with God being divine and Jesus being merely human.

That was what I said Aquila

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sean

Prax, the point I was making is if we "label" ourselves, its ok...you know we call ourselves 3 steppers, others can too. But comparing us to some unknown persons of centuries ago with only "similarities" in beliefs, is a cop out.

First of all, it's not centuries ago. They still are around today and they call themselves Unitarians

How is it a cop out to identify belief systems? Do you refrain from using the words "Catholic, Christian, Muslims, Baptist, American etc etc etc"? Do you? Why are you so bothered by labels? It's a false argument unless you never EVER use a label for someone's belief system

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

That was what I said Aquila

Yes, I know that's what you said. My point is... what I believe isn't Unitarianism. The Unitarians would never accept that we see two persons (one human and one divine) partaking in one another's essence and nature, thereby making them one in spirit, one being (one thing). The man Christ Jesus being one with the Father. Oneness.