Islamic Prayers at the Vatican

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Luke

No they according to the Bible rejected Him as well when they rejected Jesus:

1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.



I said that Jesus has always existed because this what the Bible specificly says not because I wanted to sound spiritual.

The bible says lots of things not relevant to this discussion

[Luke]

Originally Posted by jfrog

The bible says lots of things not relevant to this discussion

Are you saying that the passage i quoted was not relevant or that the Bible says Jesus always existed is not relevant?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Luke

I accept the Bible.

It works just fine--if you work it. Amen.

Originally Posted by Luke

How can it be true that Jesus is the only way and yet at the same time you say it is true that there are other ways as well these are contradictory and cannot both be true.

and yet the Bible, that you accept, is full of apparent contradictions, even for a believer. All those When did we see you thirsty, and give you a drink? people obviously never said any of those words which we hold so dear, and yet they are accepted.

Originally Posted by Luke

Please explain your point in the underlined section.

you "Why are we not qualified to discuss christianity? All of those terms are what the Bible uses therefore they are the words God chose."
me "how do you know? how did 'confident expectation' turn in to 'hope?' How did 'the earth became void' turn in to 'the earth was void?' "

the connotation for our current usage of the word 'hope' is completely different from 'confident expectation,' its original intent. Same with Gen 1:2, which reads "The earth WAS void," when a better way to put it in the current vernacular is obviously "The earth BECAME void." The Bible is full of these. I do not mean to imply that It is wrong, just subject to interpretation (thereby revealing of premises). It is perfect, imo, just like that.

Originally Posted by Luke

I agree that we should question what we have been taught by man but I have no need to question God or His word.

i posit that every single jot and tittle you got was filtered through some guy with a pen or a mouth, and the spiritual concepts that they merely indicate cannot be learned until they are related to the real world in ones walk. You cannot teach someone to be spiritual. Or forgiving, apparently.

Originally Posted by Luke

Titus1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

This verse in no way says you cannot know God. This verse is talking about those who claim to know God but do not obey God and live abominable lives.

yes, abominations abound. we are completely immersed in satan, in the world. what is an abomination, anyway? i see abominations in prescriptions, broken food from the grocery store, mortgages, locks, and people who are 'certified' pastors, yet behave as accusers. i could go on. maybe you see different ones.

Originally Posted by Luke

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Again this never says you can't know God. It is the apostle questioning those who were once saved how they leave God for a lie.

then what were they saved from? why do you suppose that they were any less 'Christian' than you or I? This verse is talking about us. I think i chiefly posted it to highlight the "I know God" thing in Scripture really only means "I know that there is One God;" iow, you (all) have come to God's attention, just the slightest little bit.

Originally Posted by Luke

Eccl 9:1 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

This does not even say you what posted. Atleast not in the KJV.

Just as an aside, i would reply that you talk about disliking homosexuality, and then read a translation by a homosexual. But no matter. Do you have a mortgage, Luke?

Originally Posted by Luke

You can know God in a very really and personal way scripture never in anyway contradicts that.

i would agree that one may come to some knowledge of Christ, in a personal way; similar to a little child...so ok, yes, one may actually begin to vaguely grasp YHWH by the time they die, if they have dug deeply; but
Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him tells me that i am prolly kidding myself there. Who can say they 'know God?' Don't we have some Scripture about "unapproachable?"

Originally Posted by Luke

If two views conflict one is right and the other is wrong or both are wrong but they cannot both be right.

how do you know? this is why we are in the shape we are in, imo; this "my way or else" stuff, disregarding the spiritual aspect. Here i am (apparently) disagreeing with you, and yet i believe that you are right, Luke. Now what?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Luke

Shazeep I am curious about one thing. If you believe that there are many roads to heaven do you also believe that the holy book of these other ways are also equal to the Bible?

Luke, i think the followers of those Books are the "When did we see you thirsty?" crowd. There is obviously only one road to heaven, that 9/10ths of the Law thing, "Love your neighbor," that i am sure can be translated into any language. If they are not against us, then they are for us. i personally would be able to tell immediately, when they are not pointing at me and accusing me of being a Christian.

[shazeep]

(a little trap there fa ya, Luke...)

[Luke]

Originally Posted by shazeep

It works just fine--if you work it. Amen.
and yet the Bible, that you accept, is full of apparent contradictions, even for a believer. All those When did we see you thirsty, and give you a drink? people obviously never said any of those words which we hold so dear, and yet they are accepted.

I don't see these contradictions in the bible rather i see that man causes seeming contradictions by twisting scripture.

The bible never in the passage you are referencing even begins to hint to more than one way. If you read the entirerty of that passage you would find that it is pointing out the importance of obedience to God in that it says Not everyone that sayeth Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of my Father. As it was God's plan to redeem the world through the death of Jesus this would mean that Jesus is the only way.

Originally Posted by shazeep

you "Why are we not qualified to discuss christianity? All of those terms are what the Bible uses therefore they are the words God chose."
me "how do you know? how did 'confident expectation' turn in to 'hope?' How did 'the earth became void' turn in to 'the earth was void?' "

the connotation for our current usage of the word 'hope' is completely different from 'confident expectation,' its original intent. Same with Gen 1:2, which reads "The earth WAS void," when a better way to put it in the current vernacular is obviously "The earth BECAME void." The Bible is full of these. I do not mean to imply that It is wrong, just subject to interpretation (thereby revealing of premises). It is perfect, imo, just like that.

You are speaking of those who want to make the Bible say what they want it to.

Originally Posted by shazeep

i posit that every single jot and tittle you got was filtered through some guy with a pen or a mouth, and the spiritual concepts that they merely indicate cannot be learned until they are related to the real world in ones walk. You cannot teach someone to be spiritual. Or forgiving, apparently.
yes, abominations abound. we are completely immersed in satan, in the world. what is an abomination, anyway? i see abominations in prescriptions, broken food from the grocery store, mortgages, locks, and people who are 'certified' pastors, yet behave as accusers. i could go on. maybe you see different ones.

I try my best to take my beliefs striaght from the Bible. I do read other books but i always try to weed out what does not agree with scripture.

Originally Posted by shazeep

then what were they saved from? why do you suppose that they were any less 'Christian' than you or I? This verse is talking about us. I think i chiefly posted it to highlight the "I know God" thing in Scripture really only means "I know that there is One God;" iow, you (all) have come to God's attention, just the slightest little bit.

If they leave the gospel of Jesus they lose their salvation.

Originally Posted by shazeep

Just as an aside, i would reply that you talk about disliking homosexuality, and then read a translation by a homosexual. But no matter. Do you have a mortgage, Luke?

IF King James was a homosexual he did not do the translating also it was said that he was a homosexual by those who were his enemies. In other words it is not a fact.

Originally Posted by shazeep

i would agree that one may come to some knowledge of Christ, in a personal way; similar to a little child...so ok, yes, one may actually begin to vaguely grasp YHWH by the time they die, if they have dug deeply; but
Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him tells me that i am prolly kidding myself there. Who can say they 'know God?' Don't we have some Scripture about "unapproachable?"

Know in the Bible are we said to be unable to know God.

Originally Posted by shazeep

how do you know? this is why we are in the shape we are in, imo; this "my way or else" stuff, disregarding the spiritual aspect. Here i am (apparently) disagreeing with you, and yet i believe that you are right, Luke. Now what?

Do you believe in absolute truth?

[Luke]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Luke, i think the followers of those Books are the "When did we see you thirsty?" crowd. There is obviously only one road to heaven, that 9/10ths of the Law thing, "Love your neighbor," that i am sure can be translated into any language. If they are not against us, then they are for us. i personally would be able to tell immediately, when they are not pointing at me and accusing me of being a Christian.

We should love our neighbor but this is never set forth as a means to heaven.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Luke

You are speaking of those who want to make the Bible say what they want it to.

? hmm, i thought the "confident expectation" thing was pretty well accepted...and the "earth became void" one is evident from a 2 minute lexicon search. But perhaps you meant ol' K James, turning Passover into Easter, etc.

i think "Absolute Truth" is just another Name for God, personally; that we cannot really experience, except possibly in fleeting moments. But you neglected to tell me if you have a mortgage--why is that?--and i wanted to make a point there; that being that if you do, you are a slave to the man, and you cannot serve two masters. Those invested in the system must defend that system at all costs, or face cognitive dissonance, which no one wants to do. Now see that i don't care if you have a mortgage or not--please don't answer it--but that one who does is of necessity blinded in a certain sense. Just one example; i could put fwd others--pastors who sign pledges, people who imagine that they can serve God in some building they call 'church,' people who imagine that they can sign an oath of fealty, and 'serve' in the armed forces...i could tick pretty much everyone on this forum off, surely, in some regard. If you knew me, you could prolly do the same. i hope you see that i don't mean to contradict your posts, so much as show another reflection of them. There is One true thing, and many reflections. We get the reflections, here--"through a mirror, darkly." Peace to you.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by shazeep

? hmm, i thought the "confident expectation" thing was pretty well accepted...and the "earth became void" one is evident from a 2 minute lexicon search. But perhaps you meant ol' K James, turning Passover into Easter, etc.

i think "Absolute Truth" is just another Name for God, personally; that we cannot really experience, except possibly in fleeting moments.

How do you know that is true.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Luke

We should love our neighbor but this is never set forth as a means to heaven.

well, i just told that to the guy who said "when did we see you thirsty?" and he said, "ok."