Truth and Deception

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

In a sense, my post about how we judge people so easily, and throw them under the bus, because they see something differently than we do, is being illustrated as we speak. Because a concept was brought to me in a different format or truth than what you are used to... you are then willing to not consider anything else that was said, but conveniently ignore all that was written, simply because it doesn't jive with your particular doctrine or dogma.

And I understand that, even expected it, and knew it would happen. That's okay.

But again... the entire message of my post you have chosen to disregard, simply because you have chosen to judge the interpretation of the parable as false, and therefore conclude that nothing else that was said is worthy to be considered. See what I mean?

That's still not the issue. The issue is you spoke for the Lord in first person as though He was the one saying the things you posted in the original post. If you don't see why that matters, especially if you are wrong, then what more can be said?

I have submitted that it is indeed wrong and have shown to the best of my ability why it is wrong, not just because I say so or don't agree, but because the Scriptures in question don't agree, unless the meaning of those Scriptures are widely and unashamedly changed.

It is within my Scriptural right to admonition (as it is your and any other believers right) according to Romans 15:14. An admonishment is a gentle warning to reconsider. I have done that. What more can I do?

To do more is not my place. Thus ends my involvement with this post.

[n david]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Yes, I love this scripture too, because it shows the diversity and creativity of our God. The wisdom that He had in the beginning to create both good and evil, in order to bring about a greater good. We can't even begin to fathom all who He the Creator is, but we can be sure that He has a plan.

Another question I've always pondered in my heart is this. We always say or have read "God is love". God loves all humanity. Indeed He does.

But, he also has the capacity to hate too.

Read this:

Mal. 1:1-3
1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.
2 I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

And then again:

Romans 9:13-16
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

How can a GOD who loves so much, hate one, even though he sought forgiveness carefully with tears? Heb. 12:17

I can't really answer that question, because I'm not God. But I do know that God, in His infinite wisdom, has a plan, and a purpose in all that He does. Paul recognized this too, because he didn't give an answer as to why God hated Esau and why Pharaoh was raised up to serve an evil purpose for the Israelites, but went on to write these beautiful words:

Romans 9:
8 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

My point being this... who am I, to question the Lord of Glory as to why He can love one, and hate another, why he can raise up a man to be used in wickedness against His own people in order to bring forth a greater good... I don't have the answers to these questions, nor will I find them.

Can the potter say to the clay, why has thou made me thus? Paul didn't have the answer either, but settled on the fact that whatever God's plan and purposes are, they are greater in design than we can fathom.

Yes, He created evil, hates the wicked and as Jesus went on a holy rampage through the Temple, overthrowing the money changers tables.

That still does not mean God is wicked. I'm surprised that anyone here would try to say God is wicked.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

That's still not the issue. The issue is you spoke for the Lord in first person as though He was the one saying the things you posted in the original post. If you don't see why that matters, especially if you are wrong, then what more can be said?

I have submitted that it is indeed wrong and have shown to the best of my ability why it is wrong, not just because I say so or don't agree, but because the Scriptures in question don't agree, unless the meaning of those Scriptures are widely and unashamedly changed.

It is within my Scriptural right to admonition (as it is your and any other believers right) according to Romans 15:14. An admonishment is a gentle warning to reconsider. I have done that. What more can I do?

To do more is not my place. Thus ends my involvement with this post.

Well, thanks for your input and thoughts. And I appreciate that you felt led to warn me. I will certainly be in prayer about the concern you raised. I think I have certainly made it clear that I don't have all the answers, nor all the insight to these things. You are most certainly welcome to your opinion about the parable in question, and I mine. I suppose one day we'll get to know and understand it all, and I'm content with that.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by n david

Yes, He created evil, hates the wicked and as Jesus went on a holy rampage through the Temple, overthrowing the money changers tables.

That still does not mean God is wicked. I'm surprised that anyone here would try to say God is wicked.

As the Creator, and Mastermind of this Universe, God is able to do as He pleases, without answering to anyone. His wisdom, and His ways are above our ways, and they are most certainly not wicked, but wicked things have happened as a result of the creation he brought into being.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Hi nDavid...

Let me ask you a question. Do you believe your heart and soul is completely void and free of all evil?

Forgive me if I missed your answer, but I don't think you directly answered this.

[n david]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

As the Creator, and Mastermind of this Universe, God is able to do as He pleases, without answering to anyone. His wisdom, and His ways are above our ways, and they are most certainly not wicked, but wicked things have happened as a result of the creation he brought into being.

Okay, this I can agree with!

[n david]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Forgive me if I missed your answer, but I don't think you directly answered this.

I did answer it, but now see that it was personalized to me.

I believe the Bible, when it says the heart is desperately wicked, and who can know it but God. Is my heart and soul free of evil? I hope so. I definitely believe it's free of intentional evil. Certainly there are occassions when sin and temptation comes along and tries to enter. Could there be evil that I don't know of, possibly; which is why I pray every day that God search the hidden parts of me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by n david

No, but that's not what the parable is about. The parable is clear that the wheat are the children of God and the tares are the children of the wicked. One cannot read this and believe that wheat AND tares are in a child of God.

If you read my first post, you'd see where I did agree that deception does try to mix in with truth. I also believe, as you posted, there is evil and good, tares and wheat, positives and negatives, truth and deception in this world; however, I do not believe they are together in the life of a believer. As I stated then, the Bible says it's either righteousness OR unrighteousness, light OR darkness, Christ OR belial. Never do these mix together.

Honestly the thought that evil still lurks in the depths of my heart is distasteful. I wish it weren't so. But I know my flesh too well. No matter how long one prays, fasts, and spends time reading the Word of God, and spending time in the presence of the Lord, there is a refining and purifying process going on at all times. It is seldom that I spend time before the Lord before I realize that the Lord is showing me something in my life that needs purged, or worked on. I am not living in abject, immoral sin. I am not talking about a fleshly besetting sin. I am talking things that are hidden deep in the depths of my heart, perhaps some unforgiveness, some feeling of bitterness, jealousy, hurt, anger, or whatever.

These are things that come inherent with our flesh, and which if left alone, will grow into bigger, nastier, things that will eventually become a sin. So the Spirit of the Lord becomes the illuminator to reveal these potentially evil things to us, in order for us to purge them out, and bring them to the light, and remove them from our life.

The potential for EVIL is always present within our flesh, even though we as believers possess the spirit of the Lord, which is able to overthrow, and dethrone these things, but it is a process, and the only perfect ONE who has been truly able to conquer all these things is the Lord JESUS himself.

There however, will come a day when all the potential evil that is within the life of one who has followed Jesus, will be wiped completely away, to be done with forever, and it is then we will receive our immortal bodies.

Until that time, evil is present within us, but it does not have to reign within us, because the spirit of the Lord is greater. But we must always be conscious and aware that the potential for evil is inherently dwelling within our flesh, and we must stay on guard against it at all times.

I personally see that this is part of the tares and the wheat (and to those who disagree, I do respect your position as well!) It seems clear to me that the wheat (the believer) will finally be rescued out of this body of flesh that we dwell in, to rise into newness of life in our immortal bodies, and that is when the potential for all evil (tares) will be finally be removed and erased from our lives, never to torment us again. We will be free from this body of sin forever, to dwell with Christ.

I also understand that the parable can mean that there are believers, and unbelievers who dwell together, sometimes with no discernible difference, who will be separated on that judgment day. Certainly that is the traditional understanding, and I do believe and see this rich meaning in the parable as well.

Finally, this is my hope that keeps me pressing in to Christ every day. I know that through Him I am a conqueror. My flesh will never quit resisting, and its potential for evil will remain until that day... but greater is He that is in me! This is the hope that a believer has IN CHRIST. This is the hope that I have that even though I must resist the potential for evil in my flesh (the tares), that in that day, if I allow the spirit of Christ to reign in my life, and to dethrone every evil thing that would rise up in my heart, that in that final day of judgment, there will be a separation of my flesh from my soul, and I will be released to my eternal immortal body.

As the Apostle Paul said so eloquently,

Phil. 3:12-14
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

That is what I am doing, I am pressing towards the prize of the high calling in Christ Jesus, knowing that I have not yet attained, nor am yet perfect (as Paul says), but know that if I follow after Him, I may apprehend (or attain) Christ.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by n david

I did answer it, but now see that it was personalized to me.

I believe the Bible, when it says the heart is desperately wicked, and who can know it but God. Is my heart and soul free of evil? I hope so. I definitely believe it's free of intentional evil. Certainly there are occassions when sin and temptation comes along and tries to enter. Could there be evil that I don't know of, possibly; which is why I pray every day that God search the hidden parts of me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness.

Amen! I agree!

[shazeep]

me, too. Ok, when i read "thus ends my involvement with this post," i hear "the matter is settled with me, and i'm not listening or responding anymore," wadr. "I'm protecting my fragile beliefs from the fire." wadr.