I dont agree with the statement that drinking water would kill you dead.People have been digging wells for thousands of years.Yes I know there are diseases that have been spread through tainted water during certain outbreaks.How many of you have older family that had a old well back in the day?Did not even Jesus ask the woman at the well for a drink?It doesn't mention him adding a few shots from a hip flask...and yes the wine was alcoholic back then.Grape juice ferments quickly and has to be treated with pasturization to stop the fermentation process.The man who started Welches Grape juice used the pasturization process to market non alcoholic grape juice in the 1800's . More interesting to note is that before wine increased in popularity mead was more commonly consumed.There are records that show mead being fermented as far back as 5000BC.Mead is created with honey...the yeast consumes the sugar inside the honey and the byproduct from that process is alcohol.Because honey is so sweet a higher alcohol content can be achieved than wine fermentation.We are talking 45% vs around 15%. Mead was also used as a suspension medium for herbs and medication...the sweetness would mask the bitter taste and also act as a preservative.
Jedi, there are caviats to every point. You are right. not all water would kill you dead. it mattered where you lived. But remember the histories are told of the places where people lived in mass. Cities water was not nearly as clean as country water. and yes, they had both well water and aquaduct water as well. It has been argued that Rome's ability to thrive was in no small part connected to its ability to deliver cleaner water to its people. But that wasnt everywhere and that wasnt all the time.
However, what I have stated here, comes from Pleny the Elder and Pleny the Younger. They wrote during the period about thier own time. So, I am not speculating...
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I dont agree with the statement that drinking water would kill you dead.People have been digging wells for thousands of years.Yes I know there are diseases that have been spread through tainted water during certain outbreaks.How many of you have older family that had a old well back in the day?Did not even Jesus ask the woman at the well for a drink?It doesn't mention him adding a few shots from a hip flask...and yes the wine was alcoholic back then.Grape juice ferments quickly and has to be treated with pasturization to stop the fermentation process.The man who started Welches Grape juice used the pasturization process to market non alcoholic grape juice in the 1800's . More interesting to note is that before wine increased in popularity mead was more commonly consumed.There are records that show mead being fermented as far back as 5000BC.Mead is created with honey...the yeast consumes the sugar inside the honey and the byproduct from that process is alcohol.Because honey is so sweet a higher alcohol content can be achieved than wine fermentation.We are talking 45% vs around 15%. Mead was also used as a suspension medium for herbs and medication...the sweetness would mask the bitter taste and also act as a preservative.
All of that being said, They probably never knew how strong the stuff was without trying it or maybe by the smell. That is probably why they were warned of not drinking too much because how were you to know when you've had enough. I haven't done any in depth research on this subject because it seems common sense to me that we shouldn't drink alcohol.
Today we can have juice without any risk of getting drunk. There is no reason to drink alcohol. It doesn't make things taste better. Beer and liquor are acquired tastes and will kill our witness to walk out of our local Qmart carrying it out. It saddens me to see that Christians struggle with this. Why would we want to partake of something so controversial, it doesn't bring any glory to God. Any there is enough variety of things to eat and drink today that we don't need alcohol in our diet.
Jedi, there are caviats to every point. You are right. not all water would kill you dead. it mattered where you lived. But remember the histories are told of the places where people lived in mass. Cities water was not nearly as clean as country water. and yes, they had both well water and aquaduct water as well. It has been argued that Rome's ability to thrive was in no small part connected to its ability to deliver cleaner water to its people. But that wasnt everywhere and that wasnt all the time.
However, what I have stated here, comes from Pleny the Elder and Pleny the Younger . They wrote during the period about thier own time. So, I am not speculating...
Wasn't the Elder Pleny the DS in Louisiana and the Younger almost killed when a pulpit cracked?
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Do Not Argue With Idiots, they will just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
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Someone on this thread said the Bible does not teach against moderate drinking, if you are honest, please read this link. It is only 2 quick pages. Then tell me if you think it is okay for a believer to drink.....
I am amazed at what is now excepted by those claiming to be Holy Ghost filled.
Yep, filled with the New Wine, dont have a problem with sippin on old wine.
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Someone on this thread said the Bible does not teach against moderate drinking, if you are honest, please read this link. It is only 2 quick pages. Then tell me if you think it is okay for a believer to drink.....
"Both the main Hebrew word for wine and the Greek word for wine can mean either fermented grape juice or intoxicating wine. The English word wine originally had two meanings also - unfermented juice or alcoholic drink"
He says these are facts but never proves it.
He also said "
can mean either fermented grape juice or intoxicating wine." which are the same thing. Maybe he meant "unfermented"
But let's see if that is true
So I looked at WordStudy and it does not say "both un-fermented and fermented"
The International Standard Bible Enclyclopedia says there are actually several Hebrew words used
Wine can be named and classified according to certain varietal characteristics, including type of grape, color, and place of origin. The type is also dependent on the time allowed for fermentation and the age of the wine.
A. Wine The common terms for wine are Heb. yayin (141 times), Aram ḥamar (six times, Ezr. 6:9; 7:22; Dnl. 5:1f, 4, 23), and Gk. oínos (thirty-four times). Additional terms are soḇeʾ in Isa. 1:22 and ḥemer in Dt. 32:14 and Isa. 27:2 (RSV “pleasant vineyard,” but lit “wine vineyard”). The origin of Heb. yayin is uncertain. Most scholars posit a non-Semitic base (possibly Hittite) underlying the Semitic root wyn or yyn. They believe that this gave rise to Heb. yayin and to Gk. oínos and other Indo-European cognates (Lat vinum; German Wein; Eng. “wine”) derive. In the minority, van Selms has suggested a Semitic root yānâ, “to press,” deriving from the method of production.
Wine was generally made from juice of the common Vitus vinifera L. grape, but other types of wine are also attested. The Talmud mentions a wine made from raisins (TB Baba Bathra 97b), and wine could also be made from dates, figs, and pomegranates. A drink called “mead” (Gk. méthy) was made from fermented honey mixed with water and herbs
Bandstra, B. L. (1979–1988). Wine. In G. W. Bromiley (Ed.), . Vol. 4: The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Revised (G. W. Bromiley, Ed.) (1068). Wm. B. Eerdmans.
Here are some logical facts I don't really need to prove (Or shouldn't have to)
Fact, They did not have refrigeration back then
Fact, food not refrigerated would spoil
Fact, other foods were preserved to prevent spoilage.
Fact, grape juice was preserved in wine bottles and the fermention produced alcohol which killed pathogens
Fact, water was full of pathogens.
Wine in the NT
In the NT the common word is Gk. oinos (cf. Heb. yayin). Once we find sikera, ‘strong drink’ (Lk. 1:15), a loan-word from Semitic (cf. Heb. šēḵār), and once gleukos, ‘new wine’ (Acts 2:13). This last word means literally ‘sweet wine’; the vintage of the current year had not yet come, but there were means of keeping wine sweet all year round.
The references in the NT are very much fewer in number, but once more the good and the bad aspects are equally apparent, and many of the points which we noticed in the OT have their counterpart in the NT. John the Baptist is to abstain from wine in view of his special commission (Lk. 1:15), but this does not imply that of itself wine is evil, for Jesus is not only present at the wedding in Cana of Galilee, but when the wine fails he replenishes the supply in extraordinarily ample measure, and later his readiness to eat and drink with publicans and sinners draws forth the accusation that he is gluttonous and a wine-bibber. The refusal of Jesus to drink the wine offered to him in accordance with Jewish custom at his crucifixion (Mk. 15:23) was not based upon an objection to wine as such, but was due to a determination to die with an unclouded mind. Later he accepted the wine (vinegar) which was the ordinary drink of labourers in the field and of the lower class of soldiers.
Fitzsimmonds, F. S. (1996). Wine and Strong Drink. In D. R. W. Wood, I. H. Marshall, A. R. Millard, J. I. Packer & D. J. Wiseman (Eds.), New Bible dictionary (D. R. W. Wood, I. H. Marshall, A. R. Millard, J. I. Packer & D. J. Wiseman, Ed.) (3rd ed.) (1243). Leicester, England; Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press.
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Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Someone on this thread said the Bible does not teach against moderate drinking, if you are honest, please read this link. It is only 2 quick pages. Then tell me if you think it is okay for a believer to drink.....
1) Genesis 9:20-26 - Noah became drunk; the result was immorality and family trouble. That is why people should drink with moderation, for even a holy man like Noah, could not handle excessive drinking.
2) Genesis 19:30-38 - Lot was so drunk he did not know what he was doing; this led to immorality. That is why people should drink with moderation; for even "righteous" Lot should have stopped after a few cups.
3) Leviticus 10:9-11 - God commanded priests not to drink so that they could tell the difference between the holy and the unholy. This was commanded only on the days that they ministered unto the Lord, but on not on other days, on those other days they could drink with moderation.
and so on, all these are perfect examples of why people should drink with moderation.
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