Social drinking?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sean

Brethren, you MUST see this site, it is truly...Game Over for the Bible boozers!

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...VYh91rDpFgGegA

Of course he is gonna say what he says. He's a 7th Day Adventist.

BTW he has some issues. For one he often just asserts something as though an authority.

He claimed Josephus said the Jews could preserve fruits for hundreds of years and admits it was an exaggeration. But he based his principle on this that they could preserve foods

Lastly, some foods preserve easily such as pomegranates..NOT SO for soft fruits

But the issue is how or what is a preserved fruit. You know what we call preserved grapes? We all them Raisins. That's right, you remove the fluid.

Pomegranate season today runs roughly from September to February, though the season was likely briefer in ancient times without modern methods of preservation. Still, the fruit’s structure permits it to endure storage better than many soft fruits high in water content. Pomegranates were valued for the seeds or for the crimson juice that could be made from them.

Gabrielson, J. (2012). Food. In J. D. Barry & L. Wentz (Eds.), The Lexham Bible Dictionary (J. D. Barry & L. Wentz, Ed.). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

Here is how they would preserve some grapes

Products
While grapevines were most valued for their grapes and the resultant wine, ancients found many additional uses. For example, tender shoots of the vines could be eaten boiled or pickled (Pliny, Natural History 14.23.119). Grapes were made into raisins, or their juice was boiled down into syrup. The high sugar content in raisins and syrup formed a natural preservative (1 Sam 25:18; Miller, “Use,” 9).


McMillan, R. L. (2012). Vines and Viticulture. In J. D. Barry & L. Wentz (Eds.), The Lexham Bible Dictionary (J. D. Barry & L. Wentz, Ed.). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

Mind you they still needed to have something to drink

Fruit was abundant. Vines, figs, pomegranates and olives were among the characteristic fruits of the land (Deut. 8:8). Grapes were eaten fresh or pressed into clusters and dried to form raisins (1 Sam. 25:18). Figs were also eaten fresh or pressed into cakes (1 Sam. 30:12), as were dates, no doubt. Although the latter are not mentioned in the Bible the later Jewish literature, as well as the papyri of Nessana, includes many references to dried and pressed dates. Raisins, figs and dates will keep for years and they were therefore the kind of food taken on long journeys or stored for emergencies. Pips of these dried fruits were found in the Judean Desert Caves and in the Negev. Of the wild fruits, that of the sycamore was eaten (Amos 7:14). Olives were abundant; some were eaten pickled, though the greater part of the harvest was used in the production of oil. Most of the oil consumed in Palestine was olive oil (1 Kgs. 17:14) and much olive oil was also exported (2 Kgs. 5:11).

Negev, A. (1990). The Archaeological encyclopedia of the Holy Land (3rd ed.). New York: Prentice Hall Press.

Fruit

Fruit was an important source of food for the Israelites, particularly grapes, olives and figs. Grapes were grown mostly for wine, although some were eaten fresh at harvest time, or dried as raisins for storage while olives were grown exclusively for their oil, until the Roman period. Other fruits that were eaten were the date, pomegranate and sycamore fig.[34][35]
The ancient Israelites built terraces of leveled areas in the hill country for planting a variety of crops, including grains, vegetables and fruit trees.[36] All the trees, with the exception of the olive, produced fruit that could be eaten fresh or be made into fresh juice while in season. Fruit was also processed for later use in a variety of ways: Fruit with high sugar content was fermented to make alcoholic beverages; grapes were most commonly used for this. Fruit was also boiled down into thick, sweet syrup, referred to in the Bible as dvash (honey). Grapes, figs, dates and apricots were also dried and preserved individually or put on a string or pressed into cakes. Since dried fruit are an efficient source of energy, they were prepared as provisions for journeys and long marches

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Israelite_cuisine

But this guy tries to make it seem as if they preserved grape juice or fresh grapes that could, weeks later, be squeezed for juice

http://books.google.com/books?id=uDi...Israel&f=false

Read that about how they preserved grapes...it makes your link look silly

Here are the two authors
J. Maxwell Miller is Professor Emeritus of Old Testament at Candler School of Theology, Emory University, in Atlanta, Goergia.

John H. Hayes is Professor Emeritusof Old Testament at Candler School of Theology, Emory University, in Atlanta, Georgia. He is the author of numerous books, including Introduction to the Bible, Biblical Exegesis: A Beginner's Handbook (with Carl Holladay), The Jewish People in Classical Antiquity (with Sara Mandell), and Old Testament Theology: Its History and Development (with Frederick Prussner), all published by WJK

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sean

He got his boozin concepts from his father David...

You mean, gulp, from a Man after God's own Heart?! Say it ain't so!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

Deut. 14:26

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Of course he is gonna say what he says. He's a 7th Day Adventist.


Ok Prax, I see your strategy,,,you first use his religion to try to discredit him, even though he has a PHD and could smoke anyone here in a debate on Greek words or translations. That is what Pentecostal folks do when they are threatened. Daniel Seagraves has a PHD and teaches the same way as this man. Your rebuttals are weak compared to these mens' work.


BTW he has some issues. For one he often just asserts something as though an authority.

He is an authority. He has a PHD, which take years of dedication to the subject.


He claimed Josephus said the Jews could preserve fruits for hundreds of years and admits it was an exaggeration. But he based his principle on this that they could preserve foods

Lastly, some foods preserve easily such as pomegranates..NOT SO for soft fruits

But the issue is how or what is a preserved fruit. You know what we call preserved grapes? We all them Raisins. That's right, you remove the fluid.

Pomegranate season today runs roughly from September to February, though the season was likely briefer in ancient times without modern methods of preservation. Still, the fruit’s structure permits it to endure storage better than many soft fruits high in water content. Pomegranates were valued for the seeds or for the crimson juice that could be made from them.

Gabrielson, J. (2012). Food. In J. D. Barry & L. Wentz (Eds.), The Lexham Bible Dictionary (J. D. Barry & L. Wentz, Ed.). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

Here is how they would preserve some grapes

Products
While grapevines were most valued for their grapes and the resultant wine, ancients found many additional uses. For example, tender shoots of the vines could be eaten boiled or pickled (Pliny, Natural History 14.23.119). Grapes were made into raisins, or their juice was boiled down into syrup. The high sugar content in raisins and syrup formed a natural preservative (1 Sam 25:18; Miller, “Use,” 9).


McMillan, R. L. (2012). Vines and Viticulture. In J. D. Barry & L. Wentz (Eds.), The Lexham Bible Dictionary (J. D. Barry & L. Wentz, Ed.). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

Mind you they still needed to have something to drink

Fruit was abundant. Vines, figs, pomegranates and olives were among the characteristic fruits of the land (Deut. 8:8). Grapes were eaten fresh or pressed into clusters and dried to form raisins (1 Sam. 25:18). Figs were also eaten fresh or pressed into cakes (1 Sam. 30:12), as were dates, no doubt. Although the latter are not mentioned in the Bible the later Jewish literature, as well as the papyri of Nessana, includes many references to dried and pressed dates. Raisins, figs and dates will keep for years and they were therefore the kind of food taken on long journeys or stored for emergencies. Pips of these dried fruits were found in the Judean Desert Caves and in the Negev. Of the wild fruits, that of the sycamore was eaten (Amos 7:14). Olives were abundant; some were eaten pickled, though the greater part of the harvest was used in the production of oil. Most of the oil consumed in Palestine was olive oil (1 Kgs. 17:14) and much olive oil was also exported (2 Kgs. 5:11).

Negev, A. (1990). The Archaeological encyclopedia of the Holy Land (3rd ed.). New York: Prentice Hall Press.

Fruit

Fruit was an important source of food for the Israelites, particularly grapes, olives and figs. Grapes were grown mostly for wine, although some were eaten fresh at harvest time, or dried as raisins for storage while olives were grown exclusively for their oil, until the Roman period. Other fruits that were eaten were the date, pomegranate and sycamore fig.[34][35]
The ancient Israelites built terraces of leveled areas in the hill country for planting a variety of crops, including grains, vegetables and fruit trees.[36] All the trees, with the exception of the olive, produced fruit that could be eaten fresh or be made into fresh juice while in season. Fruit was also processed for later use in a variety of ways: Fruit with high sugar content was fermented to make alcoholic beverages; grapes were most commonly used for this. Fruit was also boiled down into thick, sweet syrup, referred to in the Bible as dvash (honey). Grapes, figs, dates and apricots were also dried and preserved individually or put on a string or pressed into cakes. Since dried fruit are an efficient source of energy, they were prepared as provisions for journeys and long marches

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Israelite_cuisine

But this guy tries to make it seem as if they preserved grape juice or fresh grapes that could, weeks later, be squeezed for juice

http://books.google.com/books?id=uDi...Israel&f=false

Read that about how they preserved grapes...it makes your link look silly

Here are the two authors
J. Maxwell Miller is Professor Emeritus of Old Testament at Candler School of Theology, Emory University, in Atlanta, Goergia.

John H. Hayes is Professor Emeritusof Old Testament at Candler School of Theology, Emory University, in Atlanta, Georgia. He is the author of numerous books, including Introduction to the Bible, Biblical Exegesis: A Beginner's Handbook (with Carl Holladay), The Jewish People in Classical Antiquity (with Sara Mandell), and Old Testament Theology: Its History and Development (with Frederick Prussner), all published by WJK

My link is only silly to you. The fact of the matter is we are all very limited in our education of they way folks did things 2000 years ago and the result is 2 completely opposite points of view by these scholars' posts. Ours is based on the fact the Jesus did not cop a buzz and go around getting folks drunk. Your position is just the opposite.

We believe (according to your assertion of Jesus giving alcohol to drunken folks) that Jesus sinned by giving "better grade" alcohol to folks that were already drunk, which in turn, causes revellings at the wedding. This position is blasphemous according to old and new testament standards. Anyone can find contrary posts to try to counter this mans' argument. But the bottom line is...you guys teach Jesus sinned!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I promise you when I have been sloppy drunk I could tell the difference and you don't have to believe me. You saying they were incoherent is not scripture.

You can be drunk without being completely incoherent. Your suggestion seems to me that the master of that house couldn't even talk straight enough to have articulated those words to go in scripture.

Jesus definitely wasn't going to give a bunch of drunks more booze.

KJV doesn't say when they were drunk it said when they were well drank. The Strong's concordance supports that and so do the KJV translaters.

I don't have look anywhere else.

You are waxing philosophically because you are attempting to overcome the fact that the Bible doesn't agree with you. The verse is plain in its original language and in its English substance.

I posted where μεθύων appears in the LXX the translation which is quoted by Jesus and His apostles. The Greek word closes the case, the subject of the verse closes the case.

It was the best tasting grape juice the master of the feast ever tasted, a grape juice where if someone drank great amounts of it they couldn't tell the difference between good and bad?

Please, why do harm to the scripture just to please some personal teaching? Also bringing up your personal life experiences which when you were a substance abuser you never lost your ability to be a connoisseur of Ripple, Night Train, and Red Lady 21?

This doesn't negate the fact that the wine which was given to the master of the feast caused people to not recognize what they were drinking.

If YOU drinking more than enough alcohol doesn't cause YOU to drink whatever is set before you, then how can Welch's cause anyone not to notice they are drinking a bad quality fruit juice?

Remember the emphasis is on people not being able to distinguish between good and poor. Link this up with the Greek word μεθύων and you have knocked the ball out of the park!

Again, I posted where μεθύων is found in the LXX, a translation of the Hebrew Bible translated 200 years before the birth of Christ. Also scrolls of this translation were found among the scrolls of the caves of Qumran. The translation which was quoted by the apostles and Jesus Himself. The Greek μεθύων is used where the writers wants to convey intoxication.


1 Samuel 25:36

καὶ παρεγενήθη Αβιγαια πρὸς Ναβαλ καὶ ἰδοὺ αὐτῷ πότος ἐν οἴκῳ αὐτοῦ ὡς πότος βασιλέως καὶ ἡ καρδία Ναβαλ ἀγαθὴ ἐπ’ αὐτόν καὶ αὐτὸς μεθύων ἕως σφόδρα καὶ οὐκ ἀπήγγειλεν αὐτῷ ῥῆμα μικρὸν ἢ μέγα ἕως φωτὸς τοῦ πρωί

1 Samuel 25:36

Abigail came to Nabal; and behold, he held a feast in his house, like the feast of a king. Nabal’s heart was merry within him, for he was very drunken. Therefore she told him nothing, less or more, until the morning light.

1 Kings 16:9

καὶ συνέστρεψεν ἐπ’ αὐτὸν Ζαμβρι ὁ ἄρχων τῆς ἡμίσους τῆς ἵππου καὶ αὐτὸς ἦν ἐν Θερσα πίνων μεθύων ἐν τῷ οἴκῳ Ωσα τοῦ οἰκονόμου ἐν Θερσα

1 Kings 16:9

His servant Zimri, captain of half his chariots, conspired against him. Now he was in Tirzah, drinking himself drunk in the house of Arza, who was over the household in Tirzah:

1 Kings 20:16

καὶ ἐξῆλθεν μεσημβρίας καὶ υἱὸς Αδερ πίνων μεθύων ἐν Σοκχωθ αὐτὸς καὶ οἱ βασιλεῖς τριάκοντα καὶ δύο βασιλεῖς συμβοηθοὶ μετ’ αὐτοῦ

1Kings 20:16

They went out at noon. But Ben Hadad was drinking himself drunk in the pavilions, he and the kings, the thirty-two kings who helped him.

Psalm 107:27 ἐταράχθησαν ἐσαλεύθησαν ὡς ὁ μεθύων καὶ πᾶσα ἡ σοφία αὐτῶν κατεπόθη

Psalm 107:27
They reel back and forth, and stagger like a drunken man,
and are at their wits’ end.

Job 12:25 ψηλαφήσαισαν σκότος καὶ μὴ φῶς πλανηθείησαν δὲ ὥσπερ ὁ μεθύων

Job 12:25

They grope in the dark without light.
He makes them stagger like a drunken man.

‏
Isaiah 19:14

κύριος γὰρ ἐκέρασεν αὐτοῖς πνεῦμα πλανήσεως καὶ ἐπλάνησαν Αἴγυπτον ἐν πᾶσι τοῖς ἔργοις αὐτῶν ὡς πλανᾶται ὁ μεθύων καὶ ὁ ἐμῶν ἅμα

Isaiah 19:14

LORD has mixed a spirit of perverseness in the midst of her; and they have caused Egypt to go astray in all of its works, like a drunken man staggers in his vomit.

Isaiah 24:20 ἔκλινεν καὶ σεισθήσεται ὡς ὀπωροφυλάκιον ἡ γῆ ὡς ὁ μεθύων καὶ κραιπαλῶν καὶ πεσεῖται καὶ οὐ μὴ δύνηται ἀναστῆναι κατίσχυσεν γὰρ ἐπ’ αὐτῆς ἡ ἀνομία

Isaiah 24:20
The earth will stagger like a drunken man, and will sway back and forth like a hammock. Its disobedience will be heavy on it, and it will fall and not rise again.

I will throw this one in for free, the Greek word μεθύων is where we get the English word methylene. Which is a divalent hydrocarbon group CH2 derived from methane. But let's look at etymology of methylene....

methylene (n.)

1835, from French méthylène (1834), coined by Jean-Baptiste-André Dumas (1800-1884) and Eugène-Melchior Péligot (1811-1890) from Greek methy "wine" (see mead (n.1)) + hyle "wood" + Greek name-forming element -ene. So called because detected in wood alcohol. "The breakdown of methylene into methyl and -ene, and the identification of the last syllable of methyl with the general suffix -ly, led to the use of meth- as a separate combining-element, as, for example, in methane, methacrylic".

Now the etymologists direct you to the word "mead"

mead (n.1)

"fermented honey drink," Old English medu, from Proto-Germanic *meduz (cognates: Old Norse mjöðr, Danish mjød, Old Frisian and Middle Dutch mede, Old High German metu, German Met "mead"), from PIE root *medhu- "honey, sweet drink" (cognates: Sanskrit madhu "sweet, sweet drink, wine, honey," Greek methy "wine," Old Church Slavonic medu, Lithuanian medus "honey," Old Irish mid, Welsh medd, Breton mez "mead"). Synonymous but unrelated early Middle English meþeglin yielded Chaucer's meeth.


The Greek word μεθύων literally means to be intoxicated with sweet wine.

No way around this linguistical fact!

Again, this is a done deal, any arguing over this now would be the equivalent of a young child with their fingers wedged into both ears crying "I can't hear you, I can't hear you."

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Sean

But the bottom line is...you guys teach Jesus sinned!

Where did we teach that?

The bottom line is...you guys twist the scriptures to fit your own view!
and that in itself is a sin.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sean

My link is only silly to you. The fact of the matter is we are all very limited in our education of they way folks did things 2000 years ago and the result is 2 completely opposite points of view by these scholars' posts. Ours is based on the fact the Jesus did not cop a buzz and go around getting folks drunk. Your position is just the opposite.

We believe (according to your assertion of Jesus giving alcohol to drunken folks) that Jesus sinned by giving "better grade" alcohol to folks that were already drunk, which in turn, causes revellings at the wedding. This position is blasphemous according to old and new testament standards. Anyone can find contrary posts to try to counter this mans' argument. But the bottom line is...you guys teach Jesus sinned!

No Sean, let's look at facts, fermented grapes were a given in the ancient times, as were fermented vegetables, and diary products. No way around this. Therefore Jesus would of created out of pure water the best fermented wine. The Bible is good?

But people are able to do bad things with it?

The fermented wine is good because the master of the feast called it the best. So therefore what a person did with the best wine is up to them. In their world fermented wine was available to man, woman, and child but the scripture was a guide on how someone was to use that intoxicating beverage. Also honey was good, but Proverbs 25:16 instructs us not to eat too much because it will cause the person to become ill.

Instructions is what we are given, so while Jesus made water into fermented wine, He did no wrong in doing so, it is up to us what we will do with what God gives us. We can use it or abuse it.

Case closed.

[obriencp]

If we are to be Apostolic, we should follow the example of the Apostles... with this in mind, and AR Pastor's view, we are all sinners.

The Apostles participated in communion, thus they drank alcohol and are sinners. We should do the same so we too can be sinners.

[endtimer]

Originally Posted by obriencp

If we are to be Apostolic, we should follow the example of the Apostles... with this in mind, and AR Pastor's view, we are all sinners. The Apostles participated in communion, thus they drank alcohol and are sinners. We should do the same so we too can be sinners.

I can drink to that. Cheers!

[good samaritan]

So you would say that Jesus produced more alcohol to give to an intoxicated and incoherent crowd of people. Yet, you agree that drunkedness is a sin? Would it be o.k. for a christian to sell drugs for a living? Why not? Jesus (you are saying) contributed to people to get drunk so what is the difference? This isn't logical. God would tell me not to do something and then give me the stuff to do it with. Don't get drunk, but here is some more beer. That makes a lot of sense.