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  #531  
Old 11-04-2014, 03:16 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Fathe

Thanks brother. Etymology is sort of a passing fancy for me. I've seen how words have changed over time

Our word Worship comes from an old english word worđscip from West Saxon
weorđscipe

Those words look nothing like Worship to most of us

If we were to go back in time to the 15th century, we'd have a tough time understanding people and they would have a tough time understanding us
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Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


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  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
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  #532  
Old 11-04-2014, 03:26 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Fathe

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
the Lord did not leave us with the KJV. He left us with a Hebrew OT, a Greek OT and a Greek NT which was later translated into Latin and then into very very old English (NOT the KJV) several times before the KJV was even a twinkle in Jame's eye



Of course Prax, it is sooo very sad though that there is no true word of God on the planet. All the bibles, including the KJV are corrupted by men and cannot be trusted as the actual word of God.

We are stuck with false Bible against false Bible, debating one erroneous translation against another.

Forget starting another denomination, we need to create another Bible with the wording we think is best to fit the Greek that we decide is right.

That would bring unity and end all of the arguing amongst one another.

Why settle for corrupted Bibles?

Thats trying to make many wrongs a right.


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  #533  
Old 11-04-2014, 03:30 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Fathe

EASTER, OR PASSOVER?
By Jack A. Moorman
Conies, Brass & Easter, Answers to twenty-one "problem" passages in the King James, Authorized Version. pp. 15-17, By Jack A. Moorman
THE CRITIC SAYS: "A most unfortunate translation! In each of the 28 other New Testament passages the Greek ‘pascha’ is translated `Passover.' The same is true of the Hebrew pesach, it is always `Passover.' Why this one exception in Acts 12:4? Further, the word `Easter' was not used in the Christian sense until much later."
• "And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread. And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quarternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people" (Acts 12:3,4).

ANSWER: You may be surprised to know that the word "passover" did not even exist before William Tyndale coined it for his Version of 1526-31. His was also the first English Bible to use "Easter." Previously the Hebrew and Greek were left untranslated. For example, in Wycliffe's Bible, which was based on the Latin, we find pask or paske.

An article which appeared in The Trinitarian Bible Society Quarterly Record states:

"When Tyndale applied his talents to the translation of the New Testament from Greek into English, he was not satisfied with the use of a completely foreign word, and decided to take into account the fact that the season of the passover was known generally to English people as `Easter' ... Tyndale has ester or easter fourteen times, ester-lambe eleven times, esterfest once, and paschall lambe three times." "When he began his translation of the Pentateuch, he was again faced with the problem in Exodus 12:11 and twenty- one other places, and no doubt recognizing that easter in this context would be an anachronism he coined a new word, passover and used it consistently in all twenty-two places. It is, therefore, to Tyndale that our language is indebted for this meaningful and appropriate word" (date of article not known).
The English version after Tyndale followed his example in the Old Testament and increasingly replaced "Easter" with "Passover" in the New Testament. When we come to the Authorized Version there remained but one instance of the word "Easter"—Acts 12:4.
It is precisely in this one passage that "Easter" must be used, and the translation "Passover" would have conflicted with the immediate context. In their rush to accuse the Authorized Version of error many have not taken the time to consider what the passage actually says: "(Then were the days of unleavened bread.)...intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people."

To begin with, the Passover occurred before the feast of unleavened bread, not after!

• "And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the Lord. And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast of unleavened bread–seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten" (Num. 28:16,17). See also Mark 14:12; 1 Cor. 5:7,8, etc.

Herod put Peter in prison during the days of unleavened bread, and therefore after the Passover. The argument that the translation "Passover" should have been used as it is intended to refer to the entire period, is ruled out by the inclusion of "these were the days of unleavened bread." Scripture does not use the word "Passover" to refer to the entire period.

Peloubet's Bible Dictionary says: "Strictly speaking the Passover only applied to the Paschal supper, and the feast of unleavened bread followed" (p. 486).

Therefore, as the Passover had already been observed, and the days of unleavened bread were in progress, and yet Herod was still waiting for "after pascha," we can only conclude that the word must be taken in a broader sense. History in fact does indicate a pagan and Christian interchange with the word through the translation "Easter."

A.W. Watts writes: "The Latin and Greek word for Easter is pascha, which is simply a form of Hebrew word for passover–pesach" (Easter–Its Story and Meaning, p. 36).

Thus, the word came to be associated with both Christian and pagan observance. And it was to this latter that Herod was referring.

In an excellent study, from which some of the above has been drawn, Raymond Blanton explains (in quotations from Alexander Hislop) that Easter is Isthar, the queen of heaven and goddess of spring. Blanton says, "The `pascha' that Herod was waiting for was evidently the celebration of the death and resurrection of Tammuz, the Sun god. The sunrise services today are a continuation of that pagan worship."

"...the great annual festival in commemoration of the death and resurrection of Tammuz, which was celebrated by alternate weeping and rejoicing and which, in many countries, was considerably later that the Christian festival, being observed in Palestine and Assyria in June. To conciliate the Pagans to nominal Christianity, Rome, pursing its usual policy, took measures to get the Christian and Pagan festival amalgamated, and, by complicated but skillful adjustment of the calendar, it was found no difficult matter, in general, to get Paganism and Christianity to shake hands" (Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons, p. 105).
Continuing his quotation from Hislop, Blanton shows: "The term Easter is of pagan origin. It bears its Chaldean origin on its very forehead. Easter is nothing else than Astarte, one of the titles of Beltis, the queen of heaven" (p. 103).
The connection between the word Easter and Tammuz is thus: "The wife of Tammuz was Isthar (Astarte), who is called Mother Nature, who being refreshed by spring rains brings life. When Tammuz died, she followed him into the underworld or realm of Eresh-Kigal, queen of the dead. In her deep grief Astarte persuaded Eresh-Kigal to allow her messenger to sprinkle Astarte and Tammuz with the water of life. By this sprinkling they had power to return in the light of the sun for six months. After which the same cycle must be repeated.

"Thus, the goddess of spring or the dawn goddess is responsible for the resurrection of Tammuz. Easter is a joint worship of the two. This Satanic myth is interwoven with the sun's cycle of vernal equinox (dawn) and autumn equanox (sunset)." (from The Flaming Torch, Jan-Mar. 1987)

Dake’s Bible adds, "Easter . . . is derived from Ishtar, one of the Babylonian titles of an idol goddess, the Queen of Heaven. The Saxon goddess Eastre is the same as the Astarte, the Syrian Venus, called Ashtoreth in the Old Testamnet. It was the worship of this woman by Israel that was such an abomination to God" (1 Sam. 7:3; 1 Ki. 11:5, 33; 2 Ki. 23:13; Jer. 7:18; 44:18) (p. 137 N.T.)

This was the "pascha" that Herod was waiting for before releasing Peter. As an Edomite, he and his people had a long association with Babylon and her mystery religion (cf. Gen. 14:1-4).
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  #534  
Old 11-04-2014, 03:32 PM
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Re: Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Fathe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Thanks brother. Etymology is sort of a passing fancy for me. I've seen how words have changed over time

Our word Worship comes from an old english word worđscip from West Saxon
weorđscipe

Those words look nothing like Worship to most of us

If we were to go back in time to the 15th century, we'd have a tough time understanding people and they would have a tough time understanding us
I enjoy it, too. Ever read Our Magnificent Bastard Tongue: The Untold History of English by John McWhorter?

http://www.amazon.com/Our-Magnificen.../dp/1592404944
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  #535  
Old 11-04-2014, 03:36 PM
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Re: Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Fathe

The spiritual ramifications of having a Bible translation commissioned by a man who was both head of state and head of church should give us all pause to consider just what is at stake regarding the King James Version.

Read the preface to the 1611 version here:

http://www.kjvbibles.com/kjpreface.htm

And tell me that doesn't smack of the worst kind of idolatry. Those are the people who created the translation: people whose necks and souls were on the line by a king who could end their life, ex-communicate them, and in their eyes, as head of the Church of England, condemn their souls to hell.
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  #536  
Old 11-04-2014, 03:39 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Fathe

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
The spiritual ramifications of having a Bible translation commissioned by a man who was both head of state and head of church should give us all pause to consider just what is at stake regarding the King James Version.

Read the preface to the 1611 version here:

http://www.kjvbibles.com/kjpreface.htm

And tell me that doesn't smack of the worst kind of idolatry. Those are the people who created the translation: people whose necks and souls were on the line by a king who could end their life, ex-communicate them, and in their eyes, as head of the Church of England, condemn their souls to hell.


Aaron, what is your favorite corrupted version?
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  #537  
Old 11-04-2014, 03:49 PM
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jfrog jfrog is offline
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Re: Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Fathe

Thanks prax. Appears to me Passover changed in meaning from a single day to instead be a reference to that day and the feast after it. I think Luke shows Passover included all those days in his mind in the kjv verse u cited. So makes sense it means that in acts too

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
They ate Unleavened bread for 7 days.

Notice it says "Then were the days of unleavened bread"..Days. Plural

Act 12:3 And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.)
Act 12:4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.

The Feast was approaching..it was a 7 day Holiday that began with the Passover.

Passover is a major Jewish Holy day. So Harod waited for it to end.


Feast of Unleavened Bread. The Feast of Unleavened Bread was a week-long remembrance that consecrated the coming season. It may be considered an extension of the Passover feast rather than an independent holiday. The biblical texts intertwine the two feasts, with the Passover celebrated on the first day of the feast—the 14th of Abib—and the Feast of Unleavened Bread celebrated on the following day—the 15th of Abib (Exod 13:3–10; Lev 23:4–8). The Feast of Unleavened Bread continued for seven days and required daily offerings. It concluded with a convocation and rest from laborious activity (Lev 23:8).
The feast demanded a rejection of leavened bread from the Israelites’ meals, households, and storage places (Deut 16:4)
While the Feast of Unleavened Bread is not a pilgrimage feast, it was often celebrated in Jerusalem, since Passover’s pilgrimage would have already occurred. This feast likely included the waving of the first fruits, signaling the dedication of the coming growing season (Exod 34:26; Lev 23:10–14).


Swann, J. T. (2012). Feasts and Festivals of Israel. In J. D. Barry & L. Wentz (Eds.), The Lexham Bible Dictionary (J. D. Barry & L. Wentz, Ed.). Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

However sometimes Passover includes the feast, because the two were combined into one Holy event


The Passover with the Disciples
17 Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Where will you have us prepare for you to eat the Passover?” 18 He said, “Go into the city to a certain man and say to him, ‘The Teacher says, My time is at hand. I will keep the Passover at your house with my disciples.’ ” 19 And the disciples did as Jesus had directed them, and they prepared the Passover.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. 2001 (Mt 26:17–19). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

22 Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called the Passover. 2 And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to put him to death, for they feared the people.

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. 2001 (Lk 22:1–2). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

For you KJV onliest out there

Luk 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
Luk 22:2 And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.
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  #538  
Old 11-04-2014, 03:52 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Fathe

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Originally Posted by jfrog View Post
Thanks prax. Appears to me Passover changed in meaning from a single day to instead be a reference to that day and the feast after it. I think Luke shows Passover included all those days in his mind in the kjv verse u cited. So makes sense it means that in acts too
Well consider that we say things like "I can't wait for Christmas", meaning not necessarily Christmas day but the whole season culminating in Christmas day

It's just a development of languages..
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #539  
Old 11-04-2014, 03:54 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Fathe

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post
Of course Prax, it is sooo very sad though that there is no true word of God on the planet. All the bibles, including the KJV are corrupted by men and cannot be trusted as the actual word of God.

We are stuck with false Bible against false Bible, debating one erroneous translation against another.

Forget starting another denomination, we need to create another Bible with the wording we think is best to fit the Greek that we decide is right.

That would bring unity and end all of the arguing amongst one another.

Why settle for corrupted Bibles?

Thats trying to make many wrongs a right.


They aren't bibles. They are translations OF the bible.

You've demonstrated you don't really know what you are talking about when you equated the KJV to the TR rather than a translation OF the TR

Again why don't you read the Geneva instead? Tyndale? Hmm? Why aren't THOSE "The Bible" according to you?
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #540  
Old 11-04-2014, 04:04 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Fathe

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
They aren't bibles. They are translations OF the bible.

You've demonstrated you don't really know what you are talking about when you equated the KJV to the TR rather than a translation OF the TR

Again why don't you read the Geneva instead? Tyndale? Hmm? Why aren't THOSE "The Bible" according to you?




All the "translations " into Bibles are corrupt, right? Including the KJV?

Which of all of our corrupt "translations" is your favorite or most often used to share with folks?
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