Oh WAKE UP people!!

[seguidordejesus]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here's my opinion...

I Corinthians 5:12-13 (ESV)
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

Our focus should be on keeping the church presentable to Christ. The world will be the world. We are called to be a witness and a light to the world... not to being the world's moral police.

As for a Christian's involvement in politics... I believe a Christian should support the constitutional notion of liberty and justice for all (even sinners). Being a conservative, I believe that the government shouldn't involve itself in our lives unless something endangers the life, liberty, and/or property of another. We should be politically concerned with human freedom and liberty of conscience.

As far as prayer in Schools.... they can't even get our kids up to standard regarding reading, writing, science, and arithmetic. Do I really want them becoming overtly involved in my child's spiritual rearing? Do I want them learning Muslim prayers during "A Week In Islam"? Do I want some liberal New Age teacher facilitating prayer and spiritual discussion in my child's class? Nope. Not me. My kids are there for an education. Their salvation and spiritual upbringing is my responsibility.

I think it's pathetic when Christians want to sloth their duties and delegate them to the "government". Remember that old fashioned idea of "limited government"???

[aegsm76]

Any comments on Cornelius?

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here's my opinion...

I Corinthians 5:12-13 (ESV)
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

Our focus should be on keeping the church presentable to Christ. The world will be the world. We are called to be a witness and a light to the world... not to being the world's moral police.

As for a Christian's involvement in politics... I believe a Christian should support the constitutional notion of liberty and justice for all (even sinners). Being a conservative, I believe that the government shouldn't involve itself in our lives unless something endangers the life, liberty, and/or property of another. We should be politically concerned with human freedom and liberty of conscience.

As far as prayer in Schools.... they can't even get our kids up to standard regarding reading, writing, science, and arithmetic. Do I really want them becoming overtly involved in my child's spiritual rearing? Do I want them learning Muslim prayers during "A Week In Islam"? Do I want some liberal New Age teacher facilitating prayer and spiritual discussion in my child's class? Nope. Not me. My kids are there for an education. Their salvation and spiritual upbringing is my responsibility.

I think it's pathetic when Christians want to sloth their duties and delegate them to the "government". Remember that old fashioned idea of "limited government"???

I think it is pathetic when Christians are blase about the loss of morality in society.

[shazeep]

Hmm. No loss of morality in my society...

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

I think it is pathetic when Christians are blase about the loss of morality in society.

I have a hunch that most that are downplaying the concerns I've expressed, or who are trying to "spiritualize" their lack of concern, are actually Obama supporters and are thrilled at what he is doing. One poster in particular boasted previously about having contributed to Obama's campaign. Gee, why wasn't that contribution an "entanglement in the affairs of this life" as he preached to me about in his post? hmmm.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I have a hunch that most that our downplaying the concerns I've expressed, or who are trying to "spiritualize" their lack of concern, are actually Obama supporters and are thrilled at what he is doing. One poster in particular boasted previously about having contributed to Obama's campaign. Gee, why wasn't that contribution an "entanglement in the affairs of this life" as he preached to me about in his post? hmmm.

Or why support Obama when you can support "the kingdom" ? I guess Obama is part of the Kingdom, lol.

[seguidordejesus]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I have a hunch that most that our downplaying the concerns I've expressed, or who are trying to "spiritualize" their lack of concern, are actually Obama supporters and are thrilled at what he is doing. One poster in particular boasted previously about having contributed to Obama's campaign. Gee, why wasn't that contribution an "entanglement in the affairs of this life" as he preached to me about in his post? hmmm.

Perhaps your "hunch" is some rancid leftover pizza.

Apparently wanting to be a Christian means one is a Democrat. Awesome.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by Aquila

All war is sin. All oppression is sin. However, God often brings good out of our necessary evil.

All war is sin? So when Jesus comes back with literally thousands of his saints on a horse He would be sinning?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

I think it is pathetic when Christians are blase about the loss of morality in society.

It's not a matter of being blasé about the loss of morality in society. It's a matter of focusing on the church and warning the church about society's direction. We act like society has never been worse. Our founders lived in a society wherein the economy was largely fueled by slavery. Not only was it slavery... but it was one of the most brutal and inhuman forms of slavery ever known to man. Prostitution was legal and rather common. Alcoholism was rampant, in fact, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were drafted in a tavern over plenty of beer. Sexual abuse of one's slaves was common place. The Western Frontier was ungoverned and ripe with bandits and reavers. Genocidal tactics were employed against the Native American Indians, including rape and torture. Headship laws allowed one to employ corporal punishment upon both wife and children. Women had no voice and no vote. The molestation of children was more of a "dirty secret" not a crime that was actually punished. Forcing a wife to have sex against her will (rape) wasn't a crime as conjugal rights were deemed an entitlement of the husband. The industrial revolution brought 14-16 hour work days six days a week, women and children were primarily used as labor in this work force because they were only entitled to a third of the pay, factory conditions were dark, few windows, dangerous machines, no worker protections, crowded conditions, low ventilation, only a short break during the 14-16 hour work day, dirty environment, disease was easily spread, conditions often led to deformities or paralysis, no sanitation codes, in the city workers typically lived 6-9 people in a single apartment. Even after emancipation, African Americans didn't have the right to vote and various property rights were denied them. And abortion was legal, in fact, you can find adds for abortion services in local papers. Homosexuality was nearly as present as it is today. However, it was more discrete, and people didn't talk about it openly. It was largely... ignored entirely or winked at. If you were black and traveled through the deep south, you better know a rout that included families like the Quakers who would protect you from the locals... or you'd be harassed, often attacked, falsely accused, and maybe even lynched publically. Prohibition brought on a national tidal wave of organized crime that compares to the drug war today. A lack of international cooperation and mutual concern allowed dictators to rise to power who envisioned taking over the world through overt military power... which led to two world wars in which hundreds of millions lost their lives and civilian casualties were off the charts as it relates to both sides... ending in the use of two atomic bombs to bring Japan to it's knees.

Yep, those were the "good ol' days".

Honestly, it can be argued that the social evils of early America and previous generations were far greater than they are today.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

All war is sin? So when Jesus comes back with literally thousands of his saints on a horse He would be sinning?

So, war is righteous and holy because Jesus will do it???

Please understand, categorical logic has to be employed. Jesus is also God, therefore, He wages war righteously and to vanquish evil. All too often our wars are connected to a just cause, but clouded with ulterior motives. Consider the Northwoods Documents from the Kennedy era. These documents describe the methods to employed should the then Kennedy Administration wish to gain public support to go to war with Cuba. In these documents American special forces, or CIA trained and paid mercenaries, were to essentially conduct terror operations against civilians and military targets of the United States while pretending to be Cuban. The goal was to create enough public outcry and anger that the public would overwhelmingly support a military invasion of Cuba. Kennedy was absolutely against using such tactics. Even today we have documents in the Pentagon that outline the procedures for conducting these false flag operations in many different scenarios throughout the world to further and protect US interests. Now... governments often lie to their population to gain support for war efforts. The average German soldier in the beginning of WWII believed they were defending their families, culture, and nation from "imperialist" efforts to take them over. Your average German soldier knew nothing about the brewing holocaust. Imagine with me... two soldiers... both "Christian"... meeting on the battlefield to kill one another... and to some degree... both have been misinformed or under informed.

Also, consider the use of the Atom bomb in Japan. How many men, women, and children who were not even in the military were blown to dust??? Did that "please" God? Also, the carpet bombing of Germany and Italy wherewith we leveled entire cities, killing all civilians who refused to leave their homes, churches, and businesses... did it "please" God?

Let's say

War is a condition of our fallen state. Oppression is sin. And the end result that brings war to end oppression is therefore intrinsically connected. Oppression is not God's will... nor is war. It is a necessary evil of our fallen state. It only exists as a sinful byproduct of our sinful condition, therefore it is sin.



One can learn a lot through studying early Pentecostals and how licensing was used for conscientious objector status during the world wars. Also, a thorough study of Quaker peace testimony can shed some light on this reasoning.

Now, don't get me wrong. I know that war is necessary and often much good can be brought forth after said wars in the way of liberation. However, I see it as a necessary evil in our fallen world. It's not normal. It was never God's intention.

I don't believe Christians should abstain from service. However, I think it is wise and spiritual to do so. We do better to be praying the end of war and for those involved in war on both sides. We can serve humanity by focusing on humanitarian aid for refugees, justice for prisoners, and services for veterans. There are also non-combatant roles that we can serve in.

I don't believe a Christian should be a coward. In fact, I was in the Army for 6 years with 2 years IRR. I served as a 19K M1 Tank Crewman (primarily as loader, driver, and mounted M240 machine gunner) and as a 91B10 Combat Medical Specialist. I was assigned to the 2/107th Cavalry and served as a Cav. Scout Medic. Served as an element with Air Cav. with plenty of experience jumping out of UH-60's... and in several capacities that I'm not at liberty to discuss at the present time. War is a strange spirit. It brings out the best and worst of us. It is sinful. I can't see Jesus mowing down a crowd of Vietnamese regulars... most of which are serving because if they don't... their government will toast their villages and kill their families.