Revelation Chapters 21 and 22... later 19 and 20

[mfblume]

Amen. The same blood that washed our sins away has made us kings and priests. Are our sins washed away? YES! Then so are we kings and priests.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by mfblume

VERY GOOD POINT! Literaslists want ot be literal to the "T". So that demands that blinded physical eyes must see this.

Would that be impossible????????????????

Originally Posted by Revelationist

It's been requested that a thread on these chapters be started. So her it is.


Rev 21:1
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
KJV

The first verse starts out with a new heaven and a new earth. The first heaven and first earth were passed away.

To understand this, we have to go back to Pauls teaching.

2 Cor 5:17
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
KJV

We have no problem understanding that Paul was talking about becoming a new man in Christ.

Eph 4:24
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
KJV

Gal 6:15
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
KJV

And that we become a new creature.

Acts 2:13
13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
KJV

We drink of the new wine.

But, we often over look the fact that "ALL" things become new. It stands to reason that the Heavens and Earth also become new if "ALL" things become new. In fact, it's a brand new world living for God.

Let me get this straight - you are saying that there is no literal future new heavens and new earth, and that the new heavens and the new earth refer to the new birth?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Religious Nut

Let me get this straight - you are saying that there is no literal future new heavens and new earth, and that the new heavens and the new earth refer to the new birth?

That is what they are saying they should have your forum name!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Would that be impossible????????????????

Any bizzarre conclusion, so as to not break one's belief, I guess.

Anything is POSSIBLE, but consistency is hard to come by in futurism.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

That is what they are saying they should have your forum name!

No, that name beloings to the group that believes tweezers are the reason for Christ's plucked stubble. heh heh

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by mfblume

So you admit you cannot go entirely literal with that verse.

Not to a 'L'

That cannot be true. The ones who directly slew Him are the ones involved. To think the jew's descendants are the guilty people is to violate what the bible plainly said about Israel.

Bro Blume, you are speaking to someone who is not even remotely well versed on end times. I won't be able to give you the type of argument that will cause you any distress or late nights studying the word. You're wasting your time discussing this subject with me. IMO.

The verse only says that the ones who pierced him will see him, nothing about sore grapes[guilt].

The above specifically pointed to Israel and said the idea that the descendants would suffer due to the sins of their forefathers is absolutely not possible, since the only ones who suffer due to sins are the people who directly committed those sins, and no more.

I believe when Jesus comes back there will be a mighty big war and He will destroy the beast and the false prophet in the lake of fire. Rev 19

The Greek terms for KINDREDS and EARTH are shown to be translated as follows:



Notice that of all the definitions, "PHULE" is translated KINDRED or TRIBE. The definition can be "RACE", but that would violate Ezekiel 18 as well. People wailing because of Christ's coming could not refer to the issue of Him being crucified as Rev 1:7 says it is, unless they are the people alive during the time of the generation who killed Him. Only that generation could be punished since God does not put the sins of the fathers upon the children.

People wailing has to do the fear of punishment.

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Please explain Ezekiel 18 in light of this issue if you disagree.

This chapter basically says each man is accountable for their own sins.

And "GHAY" is translated as EARTH, COUNTRY, GROUND, LAND and WORLD in the KJV. In order to choose which definition is correct, we have to analyze what would and what would not violate what the Bible sets forth in implicated issues. So if we limit the wrath to those people who directly sinned, and not their ancestors, so as to not violate Ezekiel 18, the only conclusion we can come up with is all the "tribes of the land" shall wail, since John was told it would shortly come to pass and it was at hand, and the descendants can never suffer due to the sins of their forefathers. That restricts it to national Israel in the first century.

Those that pierced him is a phrase describing a people, Jews. I don't take it to mean Jesus is coming to specifically punish the descendants of the Sanhedrin of Jesus' day for what their fathers did but it only refers to Jewish people. ie: the Jews will see Him in the clouds as well.

Preterism correctly maintains ALL THAT THE SCRIPTURE SAYS about everything involved -- the sins of the fathers not being put upon their descendants, especially, as well as the notation that it was an event that was at hand 2000 years ago, and would come to pass shortly.

But all the things in Revelations have not come to pass yet. Jesus hasn't come back in the clouds. This is to be a major global event. If it had happened it would have been on the news or be in the history books. Zech 4. A mountain is going to be split in half! Major news!

[Revelationist]

Originally Posted by Religious Nut

Let me get this straight - you are saying that there is no literal future new heavens and new earth, and that the new heavens and the new earth refer to the new birth?

I believe the Word... and the Word says...

2 Cor 5:17

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

KJV

Does it not say "ALL THINGS" are become new? It's not what I'm saying, it's what the Word says...

Jerry Moon

[Revelationist]

Rev 21:4
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV

Acts 8:8

8 And there was great joy in that city.

KJV

Only God can take away the tears and replace them with joy.

Acts 13:52

52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

KJV


John 11:26

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

KJV

But do we really believe that? Never die? If this is true, then there is no more death is there.

Jerry Moon

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Revelationist

Rev 21:4
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV

Acts 8:8

8 And there was great joy in that city.

KJV

Only God can take away the tears and replace them with joy.

Acts 13:52

52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.

KJV


John 11:26

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

KJV

But do we really believe that? Never die? If this is true, then there is no more death is there.

Jerry Moon

So today in the church there is NO tears-sorrow-death-pain???????????????

Where are you pastoring I have never seen that church. Never sick, never any sorrow, not ever a funeral service, NOT one tear shed what a church. And you said you are where?