"in the Spirit" - Page 5

Esaias · #41 12-11-2014, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I don't see that in scripture. We are simply trying to establishment that travailing doesn't have to include tongues, and I don't see any strong evidence to agree with that view.

You and brother Blume have asserted that praying in the spirit is ONLY and ALWAYS praying in tongues. There is no scripture that says that. There is no scripture that NECESSITATES that conclusion. Therefore there is no scriptural basis for dogmatically asserting that if a person is not praying in tongues, they are not praying in the spirit.

Furthermore, as I pointed out, the ONLY scripture speaking about the subject of praying and tongues does NOT say "praying with the spirit is always in tongues". It doesn't even say "praying with the spirit is praying in tongues" without the "always". What it does say is very specific - if I pray in tongues my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful. That's all it says. Guess what? If I speak in tongues my spirit speaketh but my understanding is unfruitful. Should I therefore conclude that if a person is NOT speaking in tongues they are not speaking in, by, or with the spirit? Of course not.

If people wish to build their doctrine on their personal experience and subjective opinions without regard to the ACTUAL TEXT then I guess have at it. It's what the entire denominational world does, so why not, right?

As for me, I will stick with the Bible.

Pressing-On · #42 12-11-2014, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

You and brother Blume have asserted that praying in the spirit is ONLY and ALWAYS praying in tongues. There is no scripture that says that. There is no scripture that NECESSITATES that conclusion. Therefore there is no scriptural basis for dogmatically asserting that if a person is not praying in tongues, they are not praying in the spirit.

Furthermore, as I pointed out, the ONLY scripture speaking about the subject of praying and tongues does NOT say "praying with the spirit is always in tongues". It doesn't even say "praying with the spirit is praying in tongues" without the "always". What it does say is very specific - if I pray in tongues my spirit prays but my understanding is unfruitful. That's all it says. Guess what? If I speak in tongues my spirit speaketh but my understanding is unfruitful. Should I therefore conclude that if a person is NOT speaking in tongues they are not speaking in, by, or with the spirit? Of course not.

If people wish to build their doctrine on their personal experience and subjective opinions without regard to the ACTUAL TEXT then I guess have at it. It's what the entire denominational world does, so why not, right?

As for me, I will stick with the Bible.

The initial evidence of the Holy Ghost is tongues. Anytime the Holy Ghost/Spirit is mentioned it must point back to that initial sign. So, for me, it's a no brainer that Holy Ghost = tongues. I mean, Paul talks about it quite a bit in Corinthians.

mfblume · #43 12-11-2014, 08:12 PM

Praying with our spirits is contrasted with praying with our understanding. Paul is not speaking about any contrasts that deal with God's Spirit. God's Spirit is just as involved in understanding through native tongue as it is in spirit in tongues. The difference is our spirits versus our understanding. If we're talking about prayer in the spirit, 1 Cor 14 is the only chapter that deals with that issue, and it is tongues, and context shows it is a contrast of two parts of us, not how much of God's Spirit we tap into or not.

JoseC · #44 12-11-2014, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Because some people do not have the gift of tongues so they cannot pray with tongues even when the Spirit is present. Just because you speak with tongues (which means you have the gift of tongues) when the Spirit is present does not mean that everyone in the body of Christ speaks with tongues when the Spirit is present (although they did speak with tongues when they were initially filled with the Holy Spirit). And just because you speak with tongues doesn't mean that you are more spiritual than others who do not speak with tongues.

"Do all speak with tongues?" 1 Cor 12:30 The answer is "no, all do not speak with tongues."

God puts his body together the way He thinks is best. Different people are given different gifts and the diversity is a good thing. It makes it so that we all need one another. Some people speak with tongues and others don't.

I also didn't say that groaning in travailing prayer is the only thing that may be present. I didn't exclude tongues from any type of prayer. I was only trying to show that it is possible according to the scripture to pray in the Spirit without speaking with tongues. The unfortunate thing that would happen if you instructed someone in travailing prayer and said that it must include speaking with tongues is that, if you are wrong, you will make the person who does not have the gift of tongues feel like they are inadequate in prayer because they do not speak in tongues when they travail in prayer. And then they will become discouraged. Instead, you could say that when in travailing prayer they may speak with tongues, they may groan, they may prophesy, etc but to say that they must speak in tongues to be praying in the Spirit is putting an unfair burden on them that the word of God does not support.

It's fine if you don't use Rom 8:26 as an "only" scripture because I wasn't saying that it was an only scripture. Just as I don't believe 1 Cor 14:14 is an "only" scripture in favor of "only speaking with tongues when one prays in the Spirit".

Is it me or are you combining speaking in tongues during prayer with the gift of speaking in tounges? Those are two separate "types" of tongues. One is for self edification the other for the edification of The Church. You can pray in tongues without the gift of speaking in tongues.

mizpeh · #45 12-11-2014, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoseC

Is it me or are you combining speaking in tongues during prayer with the gift of speaking in tounges? Those are two separate "types" of tongues. One is for self edification the other for the edification of The Church. You can pray in tongues without the gift of speaking in tongues.

Both, tongues for self edification and for the edification of the church, stem from the gift of tongues. They are the same gift being manifest for different purposes.

So what you are saying is ... not everyone who prays in tongues is used by the Spirit to give a message in tongues? Therefore, they cannot be the same gift?

Esaias · #46 12-11-2014, 09:36 PM

So... when you guys are praying in your own language, "with the understanding", then your spirit is NOT praying, you are NOT in the spirit, your prayers aren't spiritual?

Esaias · #47 12-11-2014, 09:40 PM

One last time, for the children's sake lol:

Paul did NOT say "if my spirit prays then I pray in tongues". He said "if I pray in tongues then my spirit prays BUT my understanding is unfruitful."

There is a difference between the first statement which is NOT in the Bible but which nevertheless IS AFFIRMED by some people, and the second statement which IS in the Bible, which I agre with, but which apparently is denied by some.

houston · #48 12-11-2014, 10:10 PM

Ever pray in tongues and feel contractions in your belly? Serious question.

Pressing-On · #49 12-12-2014, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

One last time, for the children's sake lol:

Paul did NOT say "if my spirit prays then I pray in tongues". He said "if I pray in tongues then my spirit prays BUT my understanding is unfruitful."

There is a difference between the first statement which is NOT in the Bible but which nevertheless IS AFFIRMED by some people, and the second statement which IS in the Bible, which I agre with, but which apparently is denied by some.

I am not quite understanding you here. You are referencing the above scripture I Cor 14:14 in regards to "travail"? Because I Cor 14:13-14 is an instruction regarding tongues and interpretation. How do you get "travailing prayer" out of that?

Let me clarify my point as well. In I Cor 14:23 especially, and really all of Corinthians 14 is speaking about the use of the gifts in the church. Paul doesn't want them to stand around edifying themselves, but to operate in the gifts, edifying the church. Anyway, I don't see I Cor 14:14 alluding to travail.

votivesoul · #50 12-12-2014, 09:09 AM

Has no one else been praying "in the Spirit" and vacillated, as God moves, between tongues and native language, i.e. between spirit and understanding?

Does that mean, then, at every instance of change between speaking in tongues and speaking in the native language, that one goes in and out of the Spirit?

That doesn't make sense to me.

It's all "in the Spirit" if all inspired by the Spirit. Jesus prayed many times before Pentecost with the understanding in His own native tongue. Was that not "in the Spirit"?

If we ask anything according to the will of God, He hears us, correct?

And the Spirit itself makes intercession for us according to the will of God, does it not?

So, if the Spirit is making intercession for us and leading us to pray according to the will of God, and if by praying according to the will of God we can know that God hears us and that we will have the petitions we ask of Him, then by default all such praying, whether in tongues or not in tongues, is "in the Spirit".