born of water

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ok, but i agree with the O at "authority," because yes one should have both, yet there are obviously many accepted with neither; and we know many will cry "Lord, Lord--" the legalists, which wadr this sounds like. i think in between the two povs lies Grace.

Responding only to that portion in bold.

"Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in
thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?'
And then will I profess unto them, 'I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.' "

Some of you folks will do good to search the scriptures. The Lord Jesus instructs man to
believe, which is synonymous with repentance, and to be baptized: he then promises salvation
for those who believe and obey!
The Apostle Peter, obedient to the Lord's words and full of the Holy Spirit, also instructs us
to "Repent, and be baptized...for the remission of sins..."

Why then, did the Lord declare that he never knew them that cast out devils, etc.? Was it
because casting out devils is working iniquity? Or prophesying...or doing wonderful works:
is that, also, working iniquity? Of course not! Iniquity is KNOWING to do right, and NOT
doing it: it is rebellion.

So, what is it that they DID? What they did was retain their sins and iniquity; what did they
NOT do? have their sins and iniquities remitted in the waters of baptism!

[Lafon]

phareztamar

But the discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus, has nothing to do with water baptism. The whole crux of their discussion is new birth. Not death (repentance)…not burial (water baptism)…but new birth. Moreover, great plainness of speech is used, to show that this new birth is entirely spiritual in nature. It is an anointing seal…given only by our Lord…to each one personally.

If I'm properly understanding what you're stating (and I believe that I am), then I must respectfully disagree with your assertion that the discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus had nothing to do with water baptism. It appears you've completely disregarded the significance of the word "and" from the context of our Lord's statement, "except a man be born of water AND of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5). By the inclusion of this small word our Lord was explicitly stating that the baptisms (plural) of water AND Spirit were integral elements of the new birth!

Admittedly, the Lord did not expound upon the intimate details of water baptism beyond this one statement, focusing instead chiefly upon baptism of the Spirit. However, understanding and acknowledging that the English word "and" is used to express the general relation of connection or addition, esp. the accompaniment, participation, combination, contiguity, continuance, simultaneity, or sequence, of two or more things, then it should be easily recognized that by including "and" in His statement, our Lord was expressly asserting that BOTH of these were integral elements of the new birth. Therefore we must conclude that one without the other causes the new birth to be incomplete!

Perhaps the comments contained in Post #88 in the Debate Room (Salvational Issues - "Water Baptism - What is it?") will provide further evidence which proves the merits of what I have written here.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Responding only to that portion in bold.

"Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in
thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?'
And then will I profess unto them, 'I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.' "

Some of you folks will do good to search the scriptures. The Lord Jesus instructs man to
believe, which is synonymous with repentance, and to be baptized: he then promises salvation
for those who believe and obey!
The Apostle Peter, obedient to the Lord's words and full of the Holy Spirit, also instructs us
to "Repent, and be baptized...for the remission of sins..."

Why then, did the Lord declare that he never knew them that cast out devils, etc.? Was it
because casting out devils is working iniquity? Or prophesying...or doing wonderful works:
is that, also, working iniquity? Of course not! Iniquity is KNOWING to do right, and NOT
doing it: it is rebellion.

So, what is it that they DID? What they did was retain their sins and iniquity; what did they
NOT do? have their sins and iniquities remitted in the waters of baptism!

ok interesting, but the question arises how these were able to prophecy or cast out devils without being believers?

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ok interesting, but the question arises how these were able to prophecy or cast out devils without being believers?

"Now Caiaphas was he, which gave counsel to the Jews, that it was expedient that one man should die for the people...
And he spoke this not of himself: but being High Priest that year, he PROPHESIED that Jesus should die for that nation..."

The Lord Jesus also spoke about those who "...sat on Moses' seat...". This also speaks on
the "gifts and gold" sanctified by the Temple; not that the gifts and gold, themselves,
sanctified the Temple! The Lord also sanctified positions (of authority), and then chose men
to fill those positions and to speak for Him: "...holy men of God SPOKE as they were moved
by the Holy Spirit."

Now please note that those who "...prophesied...cast out devils...done many wonderful works...",
did so in the NAME of Jesus: not by the authority they thought they possessed. This signifies
that the power is in the NAME, Jesus, and not in the authority or power of the person(s)
using his NAME!

This bears repeating: God KNEW that the son would honor His NAME, therefore God
honored the son with His NAME, even before he was born! "...that at the NAME of Jesus,
every knee shall bow...and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."

[shag]

Anybody ever noticed and asked theirself why there is not a "the" in front of water, yet there is a "the" in front of Spirit? (Generally misquoted)
...born of water and of the Spirit"
Not "born of the water and of the Spirit".
Not "born of water and Spirit"

is there a purpose and does it better "nail down" what is meant?

[Sean]

Some folks think that Jesus was telling Nicodemus(an elderly man) that he had to be be born of his mother to be saved.
This idea is moronic, realizing the essentiality of water baptism by the Apostles to be saved.

There is NO new birth unless the old man is dead and buried.....

Romans 6
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (if we are NOT baptized, we are not baptized into His death)

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.(if we are not baptized, we are not buried with Him)

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:(if we are not baptized, we are not planted together with him, therefore not able to be resurrected together in His likeness)

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.(if we are not baptized, we are not crucified with Him, therefore we are serving sin)

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.(if we are not baptized, we are not dead, and therefore bound by sin)

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

Some folks think that Jesus was telling Nicodemus(an elderly man) that he had to be be born of his mother to be saved.
This idea is moronic, realizing the essentiality of water baptism by the Apostles to be saved.

There is NO new birth unless the old man is dead and buried.....

Romans 6
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (if we are NOT baptized, we are not baptized into His death)

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.(if we are not baptized, we are not buried with Him)

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:(if we are not baptized, we are not planted together with him, therefore not able to be resurrected together in His likeness)

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.(if we are not baptized, we are not crucified with Him, therefore we are serving sin)

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.(if we are not baptized, we are not dead, and therefore bound by sin)

I agree with most of what you say here, though I do not believe anything supernatural happens at baptism per say.

On this topic, do you believe that certain words must be said by the one baptizing in order for the one receiving baptism to be truly considered baptized? You seem to be avoiding this question as I have asked it many times.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I agree with most of what you say here, though I do not believe anything supernatural happens at baptism per say.

On this topic, do you believe that certain words must be said by the one baptizing in order for the one receiving baptism to be truly considered baptized? You seem to be avoiding this question as I have asked it many times.

Yes bro., the Name of Jesus must be verbally spoken, using faith in His name to accomplish proper water baptism for the remission of sins.
Without faith involved though, we have no business baptizing or being baptized...

Mark 16:16

16 He that believeth and is baptized(2 ingredients) shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.(obviously not being baptized because of unbelief)

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

Yes bro., the Name of Jesus must be verbally spoken, using faith in His name to accomplish proper water baptism for the remission of sins.
Without faith involved though, we have no business baptizing or being baptized...

Mark 16:16

16 He that believeth and is baptized(2 ingredients) shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.(obviously not being baptized because of unbelief)

So if the one being baptized has faith in his name but the baptizer does not say the right words, the person being baptized is not forgiven by God?

[Sean]

The problem folks have with relying on man to speak the name of Jesus, is also a problem having men actually baptize them.

They are equally a problem.

Why dont you address that also?