born of water

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Again, you are referring to tongues. I'm referring to an experience that the bible is clear is based on the message of justification by faith alone. That's Bible. Unless of course you really believe that those who are opposed to justification by faith are receiving it. Simple logic.

I'm referring to an experience that is promised by God to those that repent and are baptized.

I'm talking about an experience so convincing that it forced the Jew to allow the Gentiles into the church and be baptized.

What are you talking about?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I'm referring to an experience that is promised by God to those that repent and are baptized.

I'm talking about an experience so convincing that it forced the Jew to allow the Gentiles into the church and be baptized.

What are you talking about?

The same one as you and it is received based on the acceptance of justification by faith alone. if someone is in a church that teaches cult , works based salvation, they might receive an 'experience", but not the one received in Acts.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Originalist

The same one as you and it is received based on the acceptance of justification by faith alone. if someone is in a church that teaches cult , works based salvation, they might receive an 'experience", but not the one received in Acts.

Right, because the bible teaches one must accept the justification by faith alone doctrine or God will not give him the Holy Spirit and so anything that looks like it must be a fake.... The bible does teach that right?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Right, because the bible teaches one must accept the justification by faith alone doctrine or God will not give him the Holy Spirit and so anything that looks like it must be a fake.... The bible does teach that right?

Absolutely it does. Look at Galatians 3.....

2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c]

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.

8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[d]

9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Absolutely it does. Look at Galatians 3.....

That doesn't validate your doctrine that a person can't recieve the true Holy Ghost if he believes justification isn't by faith alone.

All that is in Galatians 3 is a teaching that the Holy Ghost comes by faith and not works. It doesn't list a requirement that if you don't believe this you can't have the true Holy Ghost.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by jfrog

That doesn't validate your doctrine that a person can't recieve the true Holy Ghost if he believes justification isn't by faith alone.

All that is in Galatians 3 is a teaching that the Holy Ghost comes by faith and not works. It doesn't list a requirement that if you don't believe this you can't have the true Holy Ghost.

Paul clearly says that they had received the Spirit based on a message they had heard (vs 2, 5) He indisputably labels that message as justification by faith (verse 8). In verse 14 he clearly says it is by faith in that message that we receive the Spirit.

Justification by faith is the only message the Spirit will validate and endorse by filling someone.

Catholics and Mormons are not taught this, thus it is not the Holy Ghost they are receiving.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Paul clearly says that they had received the Spirit based on a message they had heard (vs 2, 5) He indisputably labels that message as justification by faith (verse 8). In verse 14 he clearly says it is by faith in that message that we receive the Spirit.

Justification by faith is the only message the Spirit will validate and endorse by filling someone.

Catholics and Mormons are not taught this, thus it is not the Holy Ghost they are receiving.

Yep the message of faith, believe on jesus, repent and be baptized. Pretty simple message of faith. Nothing there says you have to believe that you are justified by faith only or you are damned.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Paul clearly says that they had received the Spirit based on a message they had heard (vs 2, 5) He indisputably labels that message as justification by faith (verse 8). In verse 14 he clearly says it is by faith in that message that we receive the Spirit.

Justification by faith is the only message the Spirit will validate and endorse by filling someone.

Catholics and Mormons are not taught this, thus it is not the Holy Ghost they are receiving.

Further I find it strange you want to complain about someone saying God doesn't honor a person being baptized incorrectly when you do the same thing with the doctrine of justification by faith only...

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Yep the message of faith, believe on jesus, repent and be baptized. Pretty simple message of faith. Nothing there says you have to believe that you are justified by faith only or you are damned.

If the Galatians had "run in vain" because they were believing a false gospel of grace PLUS works, then I think it goes without saying that a sinner has not been justified by faith if he has been fed a gospel of faith plus Catholic works or faith plus LDS works. Justification by faith and the new birth go hand in hand. If a sinner has not seen that he can be justified by faith ONLY, he has not believed the gospel that Paul preached.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Further I find it strange you want to complain about someone saying God doesn't honor a person being baptized incorrectly when you do the same thing with the doctrine of justification by faith only...

Apples and oranges, Ifrog.

Justification by faith is the gospel. Baptism is a response to the gospel. Sean and I agree that water baptism by immersion in the name of Jesus Christ is part of embracing the gospel. Where we differ is that I'm more flexible in my thinking on what I believe God accepts as constituting being baptized in the name of Jesus.