born of water

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Originalist

If the Galatians had "run in vain" because they were believing a false gospel of grace PLUS works, then I think it goes without saying that a sinner has not been justified by faith if he has been fed a gospel of faith plus Catholic works or faith plus LDS works. Justification by faith and the new birth go hand in hand. If a sinner has not seen that he can be justified by faith ONLY, he has not believed the gospel that Paul preached.

One can be justified by faith while believing they are justified by faith and works. Wouldn't you agree?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Apples and oranges, Ifrog.

Justification by faith is the gospel. Baptism is a response to the gospel. Sean and I agree that water baptism by immersion in the name of Jesus Christ is part of embracing the gospel. Where we differ is that I'm more flexible in my thinking on what I believe God accepts as constituting being baptized in the name of Jesus.

Flexible on believing a person can be baptized incorrectly but inflexible on believing a person can be taught incorrectly... It may be apples to oranges if you want to get that technical. But it's not apples to lugnuts.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Flexible on believing a person can be baptized incorrectly but inflexible on believing a person can be taught incorrectly... It may be apples to oranges if you want to get that technical. But it's not apples to lugnuts.

They have to believe the gospel. Grace plus works is another gospel.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by jfrog

One can be justified by faith while believing they are justified by faith and works. Wouldn't you agree?

Nope.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Paul clearly says that they had received the Spirit based on a message they had heard (vs 2, 5) He indisputably labels that message as justification by faith (verse 8). In verse 14 he clearly says it is by faith in that message that we receive the Spirit.
Justification by faith is the only message the Spirit will validate and endorse by filling someone.
Catholics and Mormons are not taught this, thus it is not the Holy Ghost they are receiving.

Gal. 3:8__"...that we might receive the the promise of the Spirit THROUGH faith."

It is not by just believing. You stated it correctly when you said, "faith in that message that we receive the Spirit." So Abraham, as with the Church, was not justified because he believed; rather, Abraham was justified because he believed God: believed the promise/message!

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Gal. 3:8__"...that we might receive the the promise of the Spirit THROUGH faith."

It is not by just believing. You stated it correctly when you said, "faith in that message that we receive the Spirit." So Abraham, as with the Church, was not justified because he believed; rather, Abraham was justified because he believed God: believed the promise/message!

Amen!! If I could type in tongues right now I would!!

[Hesetmefree238]

Originally Posted by mfblume

" There does not have to be a cleansing for one to receive the Spirit. Who said there was? This comes from the same false notion that repentance is death and baptism is burial so that Spirit baptism is resurrection. But the bible does not say that anywhere. Baptism is both death and burial. And I agree repentance goes along with it.

So I maintain an actual internal work is done in baptism with repentance that is not done with repentance alone.

Brother Blume, I believe that the fact that God fills a person with his Spirit is evidence and confirmation that an inner cleansing has in fact taken place. The Spirit does not come and dwell in an unclean temple. It is the blood that cleanses and sanctifies. If the blood was only applied at baptism, no one could ever be filled with the Spirit before being baptized.

Peter gives this description of Cornelius's household receiving the Spirit in Acts 15:7-9

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Peter just said, that God bare witness to the sincere faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and their repentance by filling them with the Holy Ghost. This was a confirmation and witness testifying of their faith, that God had received and forgiven them, and that an inner cleansing had taken place in their hearts by faith.

Hebrews 10:14-19
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

A few points from this passage:
1. The Holy Ghost bears witness of our acceptance with God and the fact that our sins and iniquities he remembers no more.
2. It's only through the blood that we enter into the Holiest (representing the Holy Ghost or presence of God)
3. The blood cleanses and grants pardon / The Holy Ghost bears witness to this and confirms our acceptance with God

None of this negates the necessity of being baptized the Biblical way, which is in the name of Jesus Christ with the baptizer invoking the name of Jesus over the baptismal candidate. However, as I said earlier, it's for God to do the judging. Faith and repentance are incomplete without baptism, and baptism is only to be done one way, which is in the name of Jesus, but it's for God to do the judging, and for us to do believing and obeying.

[Hesetmefree238]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The norm is what includes Acts 10's experience.

I fully reject in strong terms the "on credit" concept.

[Hesetmefree238]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I think sometimes we do not think through some of the things we teach. If someone was baptized in a less than perfect manner, and God still gives them the Holy Ghost, then I need to come up with a reason to convince them to be re-baptized other than telling them they are still in their sins.

I believe our argument has to based around this is the Bible way of doing it. This is the way the Apostles did it. Let's follow and obey the scriptural pattern. I agree we lose a lot of people by trying to get them to be baptized so they can be forgiven of their sins, when they've repented and been filled with the Spirit. It has to be based around you need to be baptized in Jesus name, because this is the Apostolic way of doing it. This was part of the plan of salvation and message that Peter preached. We do agree about where the blood is initially applied and that's at faith accompanied with repentance.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

I believe our argument has to based around this is the Bible way of doing it. This is the way the Apostles did it. Let's follow and obey the scriptural pattern. I agree we lose a lot of people by trying to get them to be baptized so they can be forgiven of their sins, when they've repented and been filled with the Spirit. It has to be based around you need to be baptized in Jesus name, because this is the Apostolic way of doing it. This was part of the plan of salvation and message that Peter preached. We do agree about where the blood is initially applied and that's at faith accompanied with repentance.