Once Saved Always Saved

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by shazeep

false doctrine may not balance, but its fruit is at some point revealed, and i agree with GD that there is likely a middle ground, as evidenced by the lack of any conclusive "proof" for either side. This tells me that the question is likely irrelevant in some way, like most human questions are. If osas is deemed a license for one to sin against another, v some version of 'blessed assurance,' then this will quickly out either way; and then might be the time to shake the dust off, or not.

I've never been very comfortable with "saved" as a label, as an either/or choice, anyway. On/off. Yes/no. Life just doesn't work that way--not even spiritual life, i don't think.

I too disagree with the OSAS thought that you can sin wilfully and still be saved. But like you said... many Calvinists do not see it that way at all, and have lives that bear fruit of the spirit.

So my intent is to be prepared, and to understand both sides of the argument, and as long as she doesn't believe that you can wilfully sin and still be saved (which I don't think she does), then it probably isn't a hill to fight and die on.

[deacon blues]

I personally subscribe to "Once your saved, live saved".

Some people are "Once saved, barely saved, keep getting resaved, 'cause you're probably not saved, maybe."

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Esther

That is not what OSAS believe but those that believe in predestation.

I have most of mine and my husbands family are Baptist
And they are adament about it.

God told Moses He would blot out the names He would blot out. (Paraphrased)

This tells me you can't be OSAS.

They have the little card that they play, as I've heard it before this encounter - that if you willfully sin and go back to the "world", then you never were saved to begin with.

That idea is not supported in scripture, namely using the scripture that Esaias provided, Heb. 6:4-8. We can lose our salvation simply by slacking off, and not allowing the mind of Christ to rule in our hearts and lives.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I personally subscribe to "Once your saved, live saved".

Some people are "Once saved, barely saved, keep getting resaved, 'cause you're probably not saved, maybe."

People want to be reassured that come Judgment Day, they will have nothing to worry about, hence the OSAS doctrine came about, and is trusted in.

To a certain point, we can be certain about our salvation, if we are moment- by-moment living a life pleasing to Christ, with our flesh, its lusts and desires crucified, and His will being the most important thing in our lives. I think that we can live in such a way, confident of our salvation.

But using the OSAS idea and stretching it to mean that we can willfully sin and still be saved, that is a completely different matter, and nowhere in scripture is that concept supported.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Esaias

There is not one scripture that actually teaches OSAS. Any supposed proof texts, if taken to support OSAS, contradict vast swaths of scripture. Yet, every single supposed proof text for OSAS, when examined as to what is actually stated, is seen NOT to support OSAS.

Ezekiel ch 18:24-26 is a clear, unambiguous declaration that OSAS is a false doctrine. If OSAS is true, the prophet was a liar. If the prophet is correct, then OSAS cannot possibly be true, AT ALL.

Thanks for this scripture. I had forgotten about this one. It is indeed a clear refute to OSAS.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Jesus prayed for Peter that his faith fail not. I think our definition of faith is often the problem. If faith is just being cognitive of Christ then it wouldn't make sense, but when you see faith as lifestyle system it makes sense. I as a Christian have doubted things in regards to Jesus, but my faith did not cease. I continued in what I believed even when my mind would sometimes be in and out. James that faith without works is dead.

Simply put, you can leave the faith. That does not mean that you quit believing in his existence. People leave the faith(walk) they have with him. Abraham's faith in God led to a covenant relationship and that is still key to our salvation. PS I don't think any of us can judge someone to hell. We can only point to Biblical truth that we have found and warn of the real consequences.

Faith and justification with righteous works go hand in hand. James said as much and other writers did too. Our faith alone can't save us. It requires action. An excellent example is a burning building. You are told the building is burning. You say - oh yes, I believe the building is burning. Yet, if you do nothing - do not leave the burning building - you really don't believe. It requires action to show that you indeed have faith and believe that the building is burning.

Our faith is a necessity, and it is given to us by God... but unless we exercise it, it becomes a useless thing. I can say I "believe" all day long, but if my actions don't match what I am saying, then my faith is dead without the works to accompany it.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Esau never served his brother when we read the elder shall serve the younger. It's Esau's descendants as a nation. And pharaoh was dealt with as leader of. A nation to affect the nation alone.

True. And both had plenty of time to repent and change their ways. I also thought of King Nebuchadnezzar who when he was faced with judgment, sought repentance, and changed his ways.

Originally Posted by Sean

Interesting thought.

This comes to me when I think of someone leaving the faith....

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Leaving the original doctrines and experience, is what I view as leaving the faith.

Or, if you are not exercising your faith, and matching it with works that demonstrate you indeed have faith activated in your life, as I mentioned above about the burning building.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I address OSAS and other related views here, if anyone cares to read:

https://votivesoul.wordpress.com/201...redestination/

Excellent! Your writings as always - are! Thanks for sharing that link here

[votivesoul]

The salvation of any soul can be secured in Christ, first by His faitfulness as mediator, high priest, and intercessor. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sins. No one can pluck a believer out of God's hands.

This is all true. But faithfulness to our end of the covenant made through Christ with God is still required. God gives us the grace to stay faithful, and the empowering of the Holy Spirit, to do what is required to be obedient to His requirements.

But we must submit to that grace, and yield to the influence of the Holy Spirit. It can be resisted and frustrated to the point of loss. As long as we willingly submit and yield, God will do the rest, and our salvation will be secured. Even eternally so. But we have a special part to play.

Another thing to realize: when God saves us, He adopts us as His children. Once a child of God through adoption, that sonship never departs from our account, no matter what kind of messes we make. It's not a once saved always saved, but it is a realization that our salvation isn't a yo-yo experience that changes with the winds of our occasional sins and mistakes.

Saved, damned, saved, damned, saved, damned, and sometimes all in a single hour?

Nope! God's grace is way bigger than our ability to destroy ourselves. We don't submit through some power of the flesh just so God doesn't destroy us. We faithfully, out of grateful love and humility, seek to please God with righteous, soul-perfecting conduct, as the Spirit of Christ leads us to do so (without Him we can do nothing!) because we know He loves righteousness and perfection. So, it's not to earn anything from Him. It's given freely by grace, as much as His salvation is given freely by grace. We respond in kind.

And heaven, by default, becomes an automatic.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by houston

I lean toward Calvinism. At this point I know more Calvinists than OP's.
I do not know one Calvinist that believes a child of God can continue to live in willful sin.

The problem is that many WILL use that teaching for justification of willful sin. I have known some people with the osas teaching who were very godly people. They seen it like you, but the teaching is bad across the board because it sends mixed signals. Paul mentions people who have backslidden and in order for someone to have backslid they must have been in a right walk.

Osas is kind o f like predestination, there are scriptural references to base them from but they will not ballance out with all the scripture. I believe it is a dangerous teaching which will cause many to fall.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I think you've come out swinging at me GD, without fully understanding what I was asking. I have no intention to make this a fight to the bitter end with her. She wants to discuss it, and I wanted to know the various scriptures/ideas associated with it. If she is hungering for more truth, I want to be prepared. If she is closed minded about it, then I don't want her to stop coming to our meetings, because the Lord could still touch her heart. I obviously know that there is a vast difference between what the hard core Calvinists and Trinitarians believe, as opposed to the typical layman in the church.

I appreciate your input nonetheless, and agree with you completely in that this is not something to wrangle over if she is not open to seeing it in a different light.

I am writing down all the pro and con scriptures, just to have as a reference.

Sorry as usual that you thought I came out swinging at you never my intent. I understand you are looking for scripture now.
But I was directing my post more to several posters as much as the original question. As I read through the pages of post, there were several statements made that were based on preconceive perceptions rather than fact. IMO As with the trinity, most lay people do not see or understand these doctrines as do those that were schooled in them.
I will say that from my past studies there are not scriptures that teach OSAS. That being said there are many passages that teach that we are secure I the righteousness of Christ. So I can see how this doctrine might get its beginning.
Someone referred to the statement "if they lost their salvation they were never saved in the first place" the person made lite of this statement by saying "they will play their ace card" or something to that effect. This is not a card they play they do believe that. That very thought should give us reason to understand that they do not believe OSAS is a license to sin willfully. I will even go as far as to say that not one person that truly believes OSAS gives them a license to sin willfully.
But I do believe that the blood of Christ covers our sins, even those sins that we may commit unwillfully.
Finally we have made everything a sin, things that are not sin. We have become not much better than the religious leaders of Christ day, where the traditions of men are the yard stick we use to measure everyone else that does not see things the way we do.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Sorry as usual that you thought I came out swinging at you never my intent. I understand you are looking for scripture now.
But I was directing my post more to several posters as much as the original question. As I read through the pages of post, there were several statements made that were based on preconceive perceptions rather than fact. IMO As with the trinity, most lay people do not see or understand these doctrines as do those that were schooled in them.
I will say that from my past studies there are not scriptures that teach OSAS. That being said there are many passages that teach that we are secure I the righteousness of Christ. So I can see how this doctrine might get its beginning.
Someone referred to the statement "if they lost their salvation they were never saved in the first place" the person made lite of this statement by saying "they will play their ace card" or something to that effect. This is not a card they play they do believe that. That very thought should give us reason to understand that they do not believe OSAS is a license to sin willfully. I will even go as far as to say that not one person that truly believes OSAS gives them a license to sin willfully.
But I do believe that the blood of Christ covers our sins, even those sins that we may commit unwillfully.
Finally we have made everything a sin, things that are not sin. We have become not much better than the religious leaders of Christ day, where the traditions of men are the yard stick we use to measure everyone else that does not see things the way we do.

Awesome, I get your point, and I do agree that we can be secure in our salvation but it is dependent upon our actions working with our faith in Christ (burning building scenario faith+action, or it is not faith).

I was the one who did mention that they will always say that if one loses their salvation, it is because they were never saved. Esaias refuted that concept with several scriptures, and I stand with him on that. We can lose our salvation/faith, if we turn our backs on him, and it can happen to those who were once righteous in God's eyes.

So, I believe that we can be secure in our salvation, without the on/off - saved/damned lifestyle... but if we turn away from the faith, or if we refuse to allow the mind of Christ to reign in our lives, God can give us over to a reprobate mind... and so there are these things we must keep in mind.

It is not just so simple as once saved always saved... the wording of that concept alone is not supported at all in scripture.