Once Saved Always Saved

[shazeep]

A simple question reveals the relationship of salvation, love, and works, i think:

How can you determine whether someone is saved or not?

this is not a trick question; there are no wrong answers, per se, as it is "how you determine" a thing.

[Esaias]

Ask a question, get a question in response.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by shazeep

A simple question reveals the relationship of salvation, love, and works, i think:

How can you determine whether someone is saved or not?

this is not a trick question; there are no wrong answers, per se, as it is "how you determine" a thing.

The OSAS crowd can never know exactly who is saved and who isn't.

The Arminian crowd can never tell exactly who will endure to the end and be saved or who isn't hiding sin in their heart and will be lost.

So I've yet to see either theology offer absolute certainty on this.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Ask a question, get a question in response.

the responding question is an attempt to show that perhaps we ask the wrong questions. What need does someone who is lost have for OSAS? We rush to some dogma that assures us we are "saved," and then most often park there, dead, for the rest of our lives, God forbid. Much better to assume that you--who have done all the works at the altar--are lost, and still seeking God, imo.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The OSAS crowd can never know exactly who is saved and who isn't.

The Arminian crowd can never tell exactly who will endure to the end and be saved or who isn't hiding sin in their heart and will be lost.

So I've yet to see either theology offer absolute certainty on this.

yes, and you never will, because both contain truth, imo. Otherwise, how can "saved by faith, not by works..." and "faith without works is dead" both be true?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by shazeep

How can you determine whether someone is saved or not?

"By their fruit," although Esaias shied away from those consequences, i think because i was leading him, which isn't really fair. Come to your own conclusions. A restatement might help, if a question does not:

Can works save you?

Can i earn my way to salvation, waking up in the morning determined to "help" people, and forcing God to accept me because of my goodness, i did that so You owe me this? This is manipulation (didn't we baptize and drive out demons in Your Name?)
or
Will i develop my hearing, so that i might respond in love, not laying again the foundation, manifesting Christ and the cross by my fruit/works? By making "love one another" my doctrine?

I find that every Book in the NT points to this. 2Peter1 culminates in "love," and has this to say about works ("if you do these things you will never stumble."):

"11For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly supplied to you."

So, can i say that someone obeying Acts 2:38, down at the altar, that day, is saved? Sure--if they come up from baptism, and get run over by a car or something. There might also be examples of..i don't know, "old souls" or whatever that just get it, and finding themselves among OPs, go along--as Christ did--for a public witness.

It might even be possible that while seemingly producing apostasy or backsliding in many, even these find their way to Christ at some point later in their lives. It is planting a seed, essentially. But to tell them that they have now "got it" is deceptive at best, imo. Sure, once they do "get it" (and blood has been sweat), they surely do not abandon it; but OSAS hardly applies to most who would call themselves Christian, imo.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, it is salvation by works, of course; if "throwing the gift away" is damnation by works. Works either affect one's salvation, or they do not. You can't have it both ways. You either embrace OSAS or salvation by works.

You really won't discuss this without avoiding direct questions dealing with statements you make, will you?

Shazeep, your claim that losing salvation means salvation can be LOST by works which in turn implies salvation can be ACHIEVED by works, thereby refuting the word, does not jive. Why can you not answer my question: Have you ever had someone GIVE you a gift free of charge, and YOU LOST IT?

Did someone inform you that because you lost it you could bot have been given it freely to begin with? Did you later realize, upon its loss, that the friend actually did not freely give it to you, for if he had freely given it to you then you could not have lost it? You discuss and converse, but you do so without responding to all the points I make that were in response to YOUR statements. You do not reciprocate.

Salvation WITHOUT WORKS does NOT mean we cannot lose our salvation.

And, i guess it is not salvation by works if the works come from faith,

The works that come by faith DO NOT SAVE US. Christ's work on the cross saved us. We only accepted that and believed it. But you can STOP believing.

rather than a belief that you can earn your way to forgiveness. So i guess "forgive, and you will be forgiven" should be "be forgiven, and you will forgive." Either that or we might seek a better understanding of "not by works, lest any man should boast." Does that verse have any backup?

What verse? Please give the reference.

I'm doing this to highlight the absurdity of believing that one is qualified to determine "saved or lost" in another individual, or even themselves.

And that's why you are going at this backwards, wadr.

We do not determine what is true doctrine or not based upon whether or not a view can determine who is lost and who is not. lol. That is silly. We first establish what the bible means when it says the CROSS and JESUS is the WAY. What does that entail and demand of US? What does it mean when it says salvation is not by works? What kind of works? Start THERE, not from the standpoint of which conclusion puts us in the stage of being able to determine who is lost or saved.

That's as ridiculous as saying, "If your doctrine gives you the awareness of those whom God would deem lost, then it is false doctrine." Where is THAT in the bible?

You are asking what is in the bible to prove salvation is by the cross alone. But if you demand you can assess valid truth by a litmus test of what doctrine allows people to know who is lost or saved, it is hypocritical to not provide a scripture that relates that same litmus test for truth. Where does the bible say, "You shall know who is going to hell by determining who can claim they know who is lost and who is saved."? Look at the hypocrisy and logical fallacy in that kind of standpoint? You are effectively saying YOU can know who is LOST by detecting their claims to know who is lost. You think YOU have the right to say someone is lost by pointing to someone's claim that hey know who is lost. In effect, you are in a self-condemning circle that damns your own soul by making you aware of who is lost, when you're condemning anyone who thinks they know who is lost.

That is the true definition of Babylon.

Aside from displaying a complete lack of humility,

Why is it not humble to say those who reject the cross are lost? You keep demanding your predetermined opinion is fact that says one cannot be humble and is a judge if they say certain people are lost. You have consistently ignored my explanation that we are not judges if we are only the messengers of God and only repeating what God said about those who reject the cross. If we made up those conclusions and they were not in the bible that God demands we preach to the world, then WE would be the judge by determining what is the rule to be kept, and what it means to violate it. But we did not determine the rule that the cross alone saves. The WORD of GOD did. And we did not determine the judgment to be met. THE WORD OF GOD DID. And people can reason that away in their minds all they like, but fact is fact. God is the judge, not me, when I say the violation of His word is to reject the cross as the only way to heaven.

it also does no justice to the concept, which i am convinced we completely misinterpret. The proof is in the fact that one cannot say "that guy who just made a solemn confession at the altar, and got baptized, is saved and going to heaven," or "that OP pastor who just got caught in adultery is lost, and going to hell."

Correct! But you are distorting the true picture. It is true we can only tell them to do the things the bible says for salvation, which includes, by the way, the heart. And if they outwardly do the things the bible says, we cannot know if they did them in their hearts, AT FIRST. And THIS is when the FRUIT like you say comes into play. BY THEIR FRUITS we will know. But FRUITS take time to grow.

But the actual point you are avoiding is if someone distinctly rejects the cross, when the bible said it is the only way. Ergo, Muslims and other religious adherents are addressed right there.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

"By their fruit," although Esaias shied away from those consequences, i think because i was leading him, which isn't really fair. Come to your own conclusions. A restatement might help, if a question does not:

Can works save you?

Can i earn my way to salvation, waking up in the morning determined to "help" people, and forcing God to accept me because of my goodness, i did that so You owe me this? This is manipulation (didn't we baptize and drive out demons in Your Name?)

Who ever said it was like that? lol

It is not our goodness. That is my point, S. Our goodness did not save us. It never will. We cannot be THAT good to reach up to heaven and pull ourselves up. That is what Muslims are doing. Trying to get to heaven by good works. THEY WILL TELL YOU THAT.

WII told me!

And those who claim we cannot be saved by works, do NOT show God THEIR GOODNESS to manipulate God to help them. That's that silly "God helps those who help themselves" nonsense.

My baptism is NOT a good work to impress God. IT IS MY DEATH!

And yes, calling Jesus Lord and casting out devils in your name, or even getting baptized, does not save you. Without the cross and faith NOTHING helps. Baptism is useless without the cross. And favour before God is useless without acknowledging the cross alone is our only hope. Did these people respond to Jesus, saying, "But we believed in the work of the cross for our salvation, and that there's nothing we can do to impress you!" No, they would not have heard Him say he never knew them , for THAT is following Him as the sheep whom He knows.

or
Will i develop my hearing, so that i might respond in love, not laying again the foundation, manifesting Christ and the cross by my fruit/works? By making "love one another" my doctrine?

Manifesting the cross by your fruit SAVES YOU?

Shazeep, what you fail to realize is that Matthew 7 is speaking of THE CHURCH and PEOPLE OF GOD. MANY amongst the people who claim to be HIS people are actually on the broad road to destruction. It's not due to lack of LOVING people. It's due to false prophets who do not teach the people to hear Jesus' words in the Bible about the cross and doing what it says. Yes, it is exposing false Christians. But it is narrowing down the narrow WAY THAT LEADS TO LIFE by showing us its the WAY OF THE CROSS, which includes the fact that THE CROSS ALONE SAVES. No matter how you slice it, you cannot remove the cross being the only means of salvation with every angle you treat Matt 7 and the Lord, Lord criers.

You seem to espouse the doctrine that if you love one another enough, you will earn heaven. Forget the cross. Forget receiving God's righteousness. Go out to establishing YOUR OWN righteousness. Love one another to such an extent that God says, "Ah, forget the cross, you loved people too much for me to send you to hell."

It's like the doorways in Egypt. God did not say He was looking for the love they had for one another to save them that night. He did not say they had to sincerely show true love to each other for the death angel to bypass their doors. He said HE WAS LOOKING FOR THE BLOOD! That translates over into the DEATH OF THE CROSS by the LAMB JESUS, whose blood redeems US as much as the lamb's blood redeemed Israel in Egypt.

One chapter after the PASSOVER Word of God to see the BLOOD OF THE LAMB they had to place on their doors, we read this connection of the personal lilves of those who were REDEEMED BY THE LAMB.

Exodus 13:13 And every firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem.

And when the LAMB of Revelation went to the throne:

Revelation 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

I find that every Book in the NT points to this. 2Peter1 culminates in "love," and has this to say about works ("if you do these things you will never stumble."):

"11For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly supplied to you."

So, can i say that someone obeying Acts 2:38, down at the altar, that day, is saved? Sure--if they come up from baptism, and get run over by a car or something. There might also be examples of..i don't know, "old souls" or whatever that just get it, and finding themselves among OPs, go along--as Christ did--for a public witness.

It might even be possible that while seemingly producing apostasy or backsliding in many, even these find their way to Christ at some point later in their lives. It is planting a seed, essentially. But to tell them that they have now "got it" is deceptive at best, imo. Sure, once they do "get it" (and blood has been sweat), they surely do not abandon it; but OSAS hardly applies to most who would call themselves Christian, imo.

It is not deception to say the work of the cross saves them, and there is no good works that can save them. If you believe that is incorrect, then you are blaspheming the work of the cross. You We re tending far more toward OUR WORKS and not the work of the cross that saves if we cannot tell people their full heart-felt obedient faith in knowing Christ and His death on the cross alone saves them, which you actually agree saves them by your words of them getting killed as soon as they leave. But you poo-poo what is actually an AWESOME experience to have a person accept the work of the cross as their means of salvation. You barely clap in applause, when the bible says all of heaven rejoices over one soul who repents! The most important part of faith is being overshadowed and made the least part when you claim we cannot tell them they are saved.

I totally agree that lack of fruit later is detrimental. But true believers go back to the cross every time and seek forgiveness.

John said this to saved people:

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Notice how it puts the righteousness on JESUS, not us? He is made righteousness for us.

1 Corinthians 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

But that does not mean we must not act righteously.

1 John 2:4-5 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (5) But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

After saying GOD raises us up with Christ in salvation, in Ephesians 2, we then read in Ephesiasn 4:

Ephesians 4:1-2 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, (2) With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;

THAT is where the love one another comes in. THAT is where the GS comes in. AFTER we are saved by the cross, Eph 1, we THEN seek to walk in love, Eph 4.

But you were trying to say people cannot be said to be lost just because they reject the cross. THAT is what you were saying to me with the Islam issue. Do you still maintain that? You're bold to speak of those whom YOU think are lost with the LOVE litmus test, but what about the CROSS litmus test?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

A simple question reveals the relationship of salvation, love, and works, i think:

How can you determine whether someone is saved or not?

this is not a trick question; there are no wrong answers, per se, as it is "how you determine" a thing.

That's not actually the best question. In our chats, the best question is whether or not the work of the cross alone saves by being GOD'S work, or does OUR OWN works apart from the cross save?

[shazeep]

"Have you ever had someone GIVE you a gift free of charge, and YOU LOST IT?"
the question is irrelevant to me, sorry.

"You have consistently ignored my explanation that we are not judges if we are only the messengers of God and only repeating what God said about those who reject the cross. If we made up those conclusions and they were not in the bible that God demands we preach to the world, then WE would be the judge by determining what is the rule to be kept, and what it means to violate it. But we did not determine the rule that the cross alone saves. The WORD of GOD did. And we did not determine the judgment to be met. THE WORD OF GOD DID. And people can reason that away in their minds all they like, but fact is fact. God is the judge, not me, when I say the violation of His word is to reject the cross as the only way to heaven."
So be it. Then, i tell you in all love, with Scripture as my witness, that you are lost in your sins; and of course you must agree, when i provide the verse. I can read Scripture, too! This is not the way to life, but death, Mike, as your reaction will tell you. This is self-serving, and preserves one's ego, which is why i consistently ignore it. You have found a way to condemn others, as i righteously condemn you.