Once Saved Always Saved

[shazeep]

"But you were trying to say people cannot be said to be lost just because they reject the cross. THAT is what you were saying to me with the Islam issue."
no, it is not--that is just what you are reading.

"Do you still maintain that? You're bold to speak of those whom YOU think are lost with the LOVE litmus test, but what about the CROSS litmus test?"
Pick up your cross, and follow. Christ rose. The OP doctrine fixates on the cross, and removes salvation. Laying again the foundation, because that is all you have. Acts 2:38 produces hearers of the Word--not a bad thing! But the cross must become one's example, to be emulated--or they will, of necessity, just brush away huge swaths of Scripture; why not reply to 2Peter1?

"Who ever said it was like that? lol"
i did. I do. This is what religion produces; "let's make a deal." It stresses what should be assumed, and assumes what should be stressed. Would you rather be in heaven with a Good Samaritan, or a typical religious pastor? There you go!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

"Have you ever had someone GIVE you a gift free of charge, and YOU LOST IT?"
the question is irrelevant to me, sorry.

That is convenient. It should not be. Salvation was freely given, and you're saying because it was freely given it cannot be lost. You have no standard to make that claim. I am giving the standard of the Word to base my claims. YOU ASKED for the verses, remember.

"You have consistently ignored my explanation that we are not judges if we are only the messengers of God and only repeating what God said about those who reject the cross. If we made up those conclusions and they were not in the bible that God demands we preach to the world, then WE would be the judge by determining what is the rule to be kept, and what it means to violate it. But we did not determine the rule that the cross alone saves. The WORD of GOD did. And we did not determine the judgment to be met. THE WORD OF GOD DID. And people can reason that away in their minds all they like, but fact is fact. God is the judge, not me, when I say the violation of His word is to reject the cross as the only way to heaven."

So be it. Then, i tell you in all love, with Scripture as my witness, that you are lost in your sins;

You just condemned yourself due to having said anyone who can say another is lost is a judge and therefore is lost, themselves.

Please explain why that is not true?

and of course you must agree, when i provide the verse. I can read Scripture, too! This is not the way to life, but death, Mike, as your reaction will tell you. This is self-serving, and preserves one's ego, which is why i consistently ignore it. You have found a way to condemn others, as i righteously condemn you.

You consistently are avoiding the strongest case I am making. It is rather convenient since it allows you to overlook the real issue we are discussing which is if people can be saved apart from the cross and by their works of love.

I can only say you resist the work of the cross and the message of the cross is a stumblingstone to you as much as it was Israel in the first century. I provide scripture that YOU ASKED FOR, and you refuse to so much as explain where my reasoning is wrong in those verses and what part of those verses is meant to be interpreted another way, and what that other way is.

Originally Posted by Shazeep

But if you like, you could post some clear passages about the cross that you feel i am denying, and we could go from there?

Guess we went NO WHERE from there, did we?

I have never personally come across someone with such an aversion to the cross. I heard of Israel doing that, and saw people outright reject the cross, but to have someone who claims to be a Christian do that is a first for me!

I'm getting to the heart and basis of your claims and you refuse to comply but assume your perspective on WHY people say such a group is lost is correct, when you are fully unwilling to determine if that perspective is even correct or not. And now you turn around and say I AM LOST which is genuinely hypocritical.

Like nailing jello on a wall. You will NOT deal with actual scripture. Anyone can quote scripture, S. But you are not studying it to learn its context and intended meaning. And not even willing to discuss the scriptures you asked for, to prove your point.

I am not saying loviong others is NOT required to maintain our salvation. Not at all. Maybe you think I am.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

"But you were trying to say people cannot be said to be lost just because they reject the cross. THAT is what you were saying to me with the Islam issue."
no, it is not--that is just what you are reading.

Well then explain what you mean, then. You asked me for verses that show the cross is asolutely the only way to heaven. I provided them. Why did you ask? Seems to me you do not believe the cross is the only way. If that is not why, then tell me.

You deny something is your intention and when I ask what that intention is, you do not say!

"Do you still maintain that? You're bold to speak of those whom YOU think are lost with the LOVE litmus test, but what about the CROSS litmus test?"
Pick up your cross, and follow. Christ rose. The OP doctrine fixates on the cross, and removes salvation.

lol. I am totally doing the opposite. THE CROSS ALONE PROVIDES SALVATION. How is that removing salvation? Give me some answers to my questions for a change. I totally agree we must take up our crosses. INCLUDING MYSELF! How am I denying that? Will you answer anything I ask? But carrying the cross DOES NOT SAVE ME. I need the cross to save me, and I need to CARRY it to KEEP ME SAVED. So it's the cross all the way. But I am saying WHAT SAVES and what doesn't since that is your disagreement.

Laying again the foundation, because that is all you have. Acts 2:38 produces hearers of the Word--not a bad thing!

You seem to be missing a huge issue in my perspective. I never said Acts 2:38 is the END. It is the beginning, BUT NOT THE END. I told you before you're preaching to the choir when you say we must love one another. I agree! But I am trying to say THAT DOES NOT SAVE US. What saves us is the work of the cross through Acts 2:38. That is the DOOR. That is the BEGINNING. AND YES one will be lost if they never move on from there to carry their crosses. I never denied that! But you started this whole hullaballoo by saying we cannot say certain religions that deny the cross are lost. So I am saying the CROSS IS THE FIRST STEP, and without it one is lost. FROM THERE we do the love part of it all. And it is a HUGE part. But loving in order to go to heaven without the work of the cross FIRST, is SALVATION BY WORKS. I am talking about what first saves us to show that those who reject what first saves us cannot be saved.

To focus on their love for everyone is fine. I encourage them as well as everyone else. But they have to know that does not save them like they thing it does. And it would not be love to not inform them of that. It's the watchman on the wall who KNOWS their destruction is coming because they fail to acknowledge the cross amidst all their loving efforts. And it is blood on OUR hands if we do not warn them. AND IT IS NOT pride nor self exaltation to say they need God's work on the cross as much as we did when God saved us. You seem to only see hate when someone says they need the cross or are lost.

But the cross must become one's example, to be emulated--or they will, of necessity, just brush away huge swaths of Scripture; why not reply to 2Peter1?

I agree! But I am saying the fact remains they cannot reject the cross and expect to be saved. And we cannot say they are saved while they reject the cross. That's why I asked you, which you never answered, months ago if you AGREE they;re lost but we have to SAY THAT IN A CERTAIN WAY or are ineffective in reaching them. You never responded to that,

YOU claim I am proud because I said they're lost. You suddenly became a judge of me, when you do not know my heart, making you what you just accused me of being, which I also addressed. But you never responded do that observation either.

And when I try to explain what is in my heart to say that, you ignore my words when even the bible says the man himself alone knows the things of that man, apart from God Himself. I assure you I meant nothing demeaning or unjust or self-exaltant in my words to people who are lost when I say they need the cross or are lost. And for you to say I am not is for you to ruin your entire point and bring condemnation yo u heap on me back on yourself.

This is a forum, where words are read, for goodness' sake. Surely you know that words can be misconstrued and have intents read into them that are not there, due to the facial micro-expressions, and tone of the voice and nuances of the mood that are not detected in reading words that are there in one on one situations, making you realize you cannot know my heart by my typing.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That's not actually the best question. In our chats, the best question is whether or not the work of the cross alone saves by being GOD'S work, or does OUR OWN works apart from the cross save?

my answer is "yes," although you seem to insist on the "apart from the cross" thing, whereas it is actually "carrying the cross," as the First Son did, after first telling the Father that he would not. You have not, ever, treated this response, either. Don't worry, i understand why.

"3Hish divine poweri has given us everything required for life and godliness through the knowledgej of Him who calledk us byl His own glory and goodness. 4By these He has given us very great and precious promises,m so that through them you may share in the divine nature,n escaping the corruption that is in the world because of evil desires. 5For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with goodness, goodness with knowledge, 6knowledge with self-control,o self-control with endurance, endurance with godliness, 7godliness with brotherly affection,p and brotherly affection with love. 8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they will keep you from being uselessq or unfruitfulr in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9The person who lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten the cleansing from his past sins. 10Therefore, •brothers, make every effort to confirm your calling and election,s because if you do these things you will never stumble. 11For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdomt of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly supplied to you."

So, my answer is "make every effort." You have to do stuff. This does not negate the cross, when the principle is understood. And God is going to test you, to make sure you understand it. If you do good deeds expecting reward you will shortly be disillusioned. Most people quit at that point, and become Lawyers for the Cause, and start proclaiming OSAS. However, you will know you are doing it right when people are trying to kill you. Until then, you are arguably kidding yourself.

[shazeep]

"Well then explain what you mean, then. You asked me for verses that show the cross is asolutely the only way to heaven."

the cross is, absolutely, the only way to heaven. But you do not get to define what the cross is, at least not for me, because Scripture allows that you might define it "Jesus died for your sins, and all you have to do is agree with us--verbally; you don't really have to do anything --that that is true, and you are going to heaven" when that is patently not true.

"Love one another" is the doctrine, and anything you subordinate to that is a false doctrine, to answer the rest. You seek to "lay again the foundation."

Therefore, leaving the elementary message about the Messiah, let us go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God,

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

my answer is "yes," although you seem to insist on the "apart from the cross" thing,

If yes, then why did you ask me to provide scriptures that show only the cross saves us?

And why did you claim we cannot say those who reject the cross cannot be said to be lost?

Why did you say the Good Samaritan shows love one another saves us?

whereas it is actually "carrying the cross," as the First Son did, after first telling the Father that he would not. You have not, ever, treated this response, either. Don't worry, i understand why.

I agree we must do that AFTER we are saved. But the reason I never focused on that is because you claimed we cannot say people who reject the cross saves us cannot be said to be lost. By showing the bible says we need the cross or are lost that is how I show you it's incorrect to say we cannot know they're lost.

Now, again, I ask this which you have not yet answered, despite my several attempts of asking: Are you saying YOU KNOW they're lost, but that we cannot say that to them because it would not be loving? Is the problem you have with the idea of HOW we tell them they're lost, not with the fact they're lost?

"3Hish divine poweri has given us everything required for life and godliness through the knowledgej of Him who calledk us byl His own glory and goodness. 4By these He has given us very great and precious promises,m so that through them you may share in the divine nature,n escaping the corruption that is in the world because of evil desires. 5For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with goodness, goodness with knowledge, 6knowledge with self-control,o self-control with endurance, endurance with godliness, 7godliness with brotherly affection,p and brotherly affection with love. 8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they will keep you from being uselessq or unfruitfulr in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9The person who lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten the cleansing from his past sins. 10Therefore, •brothers, make every effort to confirm your calling and election,s because if you do these things you will never stumble. 11For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdomt of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly supplied to you."

So, my answer is "make every effort." You have to do stuff. This does not negate the cross, when the principle is understood.

We ALL KNOW THAT! That's why I said you're preaching to the choir. Everyone here knows that. If you want discuss THAT aspect of it, apart from what SAVES US, then we can! But your words saying people are not lost despite their blatant rejection of the cross is more important than what everyone knows about the need to carry the cross later, because without that initial salvation of the cross no amount of loving will save us. So, yes, there is a HUGE issue with thousands of posts that can be discussed about taking the cross after salvation is provided. And we can deal with that!

And God is going to test you, to make sure you understand it. If you do good deeds expecting reward you will shortly be disillusioned.

Who says we should expect it?

Most people quit at that point, and become Lawyers for the Cause, and start proclaiming OSAS. However, you will know you are doing it right when people are trying to kill you. Until then, you are arguably kidding yourself.

You're preaching to the choir again. Do you want to talk about another issue about the carrying of the cross AFTER. You said I had a good point about the GS which seemed to imply you were wrong about loving one another to save yourself. Ever since then you've been VAGUE as VAGUE can be about the cross saving us. So what happened? Did you once agree in salvation by works in your GS example, and indicated that by saying I had a good point in noting we are not told the GS was saved?

[shazeep]

"If yes, then why did you ask me to provide scriptures that show only the cross saves us?"
To show that they may be misinterpreted

"And why did you claim we cannot say those who reject the cross cannot be said to be lost?"
Say it all you like; but recognize that it isn't necessarily true. What is usually meant there is "they do not agree with my version, and so they are lost." "Never mind the fruit, they have to chant like i do." etc

Why did you say the Good Samaritan shows love one another saves us?
because Christ said "Go, and do likewise."

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

"Well then explain what you mean, then. You asked me for verses that show the cross is asolutely the only way to heaven."

the cross is, absolutely, the only way to heaven. But you do not get to define what the cross is, at least not for me, because Scripture allows that you might define it "Jesus died for your sins, and all you have to do is agree with us--verbally; you don't really have to do anything --that that is true, and you are going to heaven" when that is patently not true.

I said the cross is the only way to show that those who reject it are lost. And I also clearly said you have to apply it to your lives through Acts 2:38. Where did I say anything to what you noted above?

"Love one another" is the doctrine, and anything you subordinate to that is a false doctrine, to answer the rest. You seek to "lay again the foundation."

That is AFTER we are saved. We do these things to manifest His will. It's what HE SAVED US TO DO, not what saves us, though. I am simply making that distinction. Somehow you think people who preach Acts 2:38 salvation don't believe we have to carry our crosses later and love one another. Whatever.

Therefore, leaving the elementary message about the Messiah, let us go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God,

Agreed! But without the foundation there is nothing else. And it was not until lately you agree that the cross is the only means for salvation. That was what you were not indicating earlier. You've been too vague.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

"If yes, then why did you ask me to provide scriptures that show only the cross saves us?"
To show that they may be misinterpreted

That is why I invited you to offer your interpretation, so we could discuss the meanings, but you refused.

"And why did you claim we cannot say those who reject the cross cannot be said to be lost?"
Say it all you like; but recognize that it isn't necessarily true.

If you weren't so vague no one would think that.

I asked questions you weren't answering that dealt with that very issue.

I will ask it again! Moslems deny the cross. Are they lost?

What is usually meant there is "they do not agree with my version, and so they are lost." "Never mind the fruit, they have to chant like i do." etc

I invited you to discuss "versions", and give your interpretation to show Muslims aren't lost, and you refused. If they reject the cross how are they saved, Shazeep? Are you claiming they reject MY VERSION so they're lost but they do not reject THE BIBLE VERSION and so are not lost? Show me how they are not rejecting the bible version, by dealing with the verses I provided and showing how they ABIDE BY THOSE TRUTHS.

I showed WII Philippians 2 and he said it was a lie. I did not give him ANY version, just the verses. He rejected them.

Why did you say the Good Samaritan shows love one another saves us?
because Christ said "Go, and do likewise."

I agree we must do that. I never denied it. But the issue was WHAT SAVES US. What the GS did does not SAVE US. Agreed?

[shazeep]

"Where did I say anything to what you noted above?"
it is inherent in your definition of accepting or rejecting "the cross" that i am required to say it like you do, to hold your definition. Acts 2:38 does not address works, and is not meant to. It is an invitation.

"Somehow you think people who preach Acts 2:38 salvation don't believe we have to carry our crosses later and love one another."
What you believe will not save you. What you do, will. Otherwise i might as well save Acts 2:38 for my deathbed.

"And it was not until lately you agree that the cross is the only means for salvation. That was what you were not indicating earlier."
i have never disagreed with that, but only mean to say that the Good Samaritan demonstrates the cross without agreeing to your chant, and is saved, while those who agree with your chant are at best hearers of the Word, without works.

"That is why I invited you to offer your interpretation, so we could discuss the meanings, but you refused."
"Love one another" is the meaning of the cross: "Greater love hath no man..."

"I will ask it again! Moslems deny the cross. Are they lost?"
and i will say it again; you are attempting to force Muslims into your definition of "the cross," and insisting that the First Son become the Second for salvation.

"I invited you to discuss "versions", and give your interpretation to show Muslims aren't lost, and you refused."
i have not refused, you just aren't hearing the answer, with all due respect. Any Muslim practicing "love one another" as best they are able is following the cross, as the Qur'an instructs them to do. Any Christian who has taken the first step of Acts 2:38, and then believes they are saved without works, i caution.

"What the GS did does not SAVE US. Agreed?"
"11For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdomt of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly supplied to you." so, nope. gotta run!