Love One Another and the Cross

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Christianity without the cross is really getting around.

Characterize it however you like. You will be known by your fruit. Your religion has split like 3 or 4 times, and is known for standards, us 4 and no more, and "Everyone else is lost."

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Christianity without the cross is really getting around.

It is mind blowing how "some" believe the Cross was a blip on the screen?

I think shazeep has been reading way too much Sri Rama Krishna, and Swami Vivekananda Ji.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Characterize it however you like. You will be known by your fruit. Your religion has split like 3 or 4 times, and is known for standards, us 4 and no more, and "Everyone else is lost."

Everyone else is lost who don't observe the message of the Cross.

How about that for a meme?

[shazeep]

that i can agree with.

[shazeep]

"Every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that Christ is Lord," although i'm not sure the GS would have a problem with that at that time. Kind of bolsters your Romans argument.

[mfblume]

We can carry this thread on without part of its original intent to compare Christianity to other religions. That's not all this was started for. Christianity is the only religion, though, if it can be called a religion, that does not preach salvation by works. All other religions do.

However, some who call themselves Christians do preach salvation by works and distort the Bible to that end.

The New Testament plainly teaches that Christ died in our stead to not only pay for the debt of sin that every single one of us owed, and to also move God to declare us to be righteous before we get a chance to do one good deed. That's the love of God toward man! And He did that for SINNERS. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly.

Rom 5:6-8 KJV For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. (7) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. (8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

We were justified (just-as-if-I'd-never sinned) by faith, and not by doing good deeds to earn God's love. We don't have war between us and God any more. We have PEACE. And that peace was achieved through the death of Jesus, and not any good deeds we could do to change God's mind.

Rom 5:1 KJV Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

One man, Adam, made us all sinners. If that could have happened (which it did), then by the same token the obedience of one man Jesus makes us all righteous.

Rom 5:19 KJV For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

But that is not saying everyone on earth is righteous without any choice in the matter. It's not of works, but it is of choice. It is speaking of everyone IN ADAM is a sinner, and that was not by our choice. But everyone in IN CHRIST is righteous, and that was by choice. Romans 6, the next chapter, says we get in into Christ by baptism INTO HIS DEATH.

It's not our obedience that makes us righteous. It is Christ's obedience.

[shazeep]

the biggest issue i have with that is not the theory, but the practice. We have a recurring theme in Scripture of those claiming to be called by His Name falling out of grace, mostly through pride, it seems. So the spiritual point seems to be lost, and the literal practice becomes demanded, and the Holy Spirit leaves to start with another client nation.

[mfblume]

[indent]Rom 4:1-12 KJV What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? [/quote]

Paul appealed to Abraham when speaking of law and correcting the mindset of Jewish Christians. Abraham, of course, is a big deal to Jews.

So he asked the Romans believers what it was about the flesh that Abraham achieved? Works, including loving each other, is a fleshly effort based upon human ability, that is really only a shadow of how GOD CAN LOVE OTHERS THROUGH US. That is why I stated that real FRUIT is not just love toward others, but rather LOVE OF HIS SPIRIT ACTUALLY LOVING THROUGH US. In fact, it is NOT FRUIT if it is human contrived without the work of the Spirit in our lives. That's why Jesus spoke of fruit on branches only when the branch is connected and abiding in the vine.

When people religiously seek to love others, without abiding in Christ that love is NOT FRUIT but is WORKS. The difference between WORKS AND FRUIT is the difference between having God actually living inside you and doing it through you as opposed to you mimicking Christ or imitating His works. That's also the reason the things God wants in our lives are contrasted from wicked things by calling it FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT contrasted from WORKS OF THE FLESH. The FLESH cannot WORK love properly. When love is a WORK it is human love. When love is a FRUIT it is supernatural love and is God loving through us.

Gal 2:20 KJV I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Paul had Christ actually living in him, and doing the works in him, like Jesus said the Father in Him did the works.

Joh 14:10 KJV Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

People are mostly IMITATING what Jesus did and not having the Father INSIDE THEM DOING THOSE WORKS like Jesus did. That's the reason Jesus put FAITH FIRST. Because, without faith in the work of the cross to pay our debt and make God happy with us, apart from our good deeds attempting to please Him, He is not pleased and He cannot indwell our lives like in Christy's to live and love through us.

Joh 14:12 KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

It's not exerting human will power and energy to love anyone, but rather believing in the work of the cross to make us righteous by GOD'S WORK, not ours, and then having GOD inside us as He was in Christ, and doing the works through us like He did through Christ! Man-made religion imitates goodness. It obeys laws to do good. But man's energy cannot be GOOD ENOUGH for God's requirements. We need God inside us. And before He can get inside us He must deal with our sins and make us righteous so we can BEGIN to do good through Him indwelling us to do so. Otherwise it's lowly and lesser human love and goodness, which is NOT GOOD ENOUGH. If it's human love, it's not good enough for God.

And because the Father in Christ did the good through Him, to such an extent that Jesus said he could do NOTHING without the Father in Him, and because He said we would do greater things than Him, the Father had to get inside us as well. That 's why HE HAD TO GO TO THE FATHER for us to do greater things.

Notice:

Joh 5:19 KJV Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Joh 14:10 KJV Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Then Jesus turned around and told us:

Joh 15:5 KJV I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

It's not without Him as a reference point to copy, but without us plugged into His life as a branch is plugged into a vine, we cannot bear fruit. Human goodness is PLASTIC FRUIT by comparison.

Romans continued...

Romans 42) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

If Abraham sought to please God by his works, it would not have impressed God at all.

(3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt

When we WORK to achieve pleasure from God, that is DEBT-oriented effort. It's not the result of grace. People who talk about GRACE and tell you to work to please god don't know anything about grace. Grace is NOT EARNED. It is granted. UNMERITED. If we have to love people to get favour from God, where is the UNMERITED FAVOUR? Where is the grace? Such folks know nothing about grace.
[indent] (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.[indent]

Here it is. Abraham BELIEVED without having done ONE GOOD DEED to impress God, and God declared him righteous! Many believers have no concept of that! They think they have to DO TO PLEASE GOD. The truth is GOD IS PLEASED WITH YOU BECAUSE OF WHAT JESUS DID. GOD IS UNHAPPY WITH YOU BECAUSE OF WHAT ADAM DID.
[indent] (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, [/quote]

This is revelation that needs to hit everyone! Did you read that? God imputes righteousness to someone without one single work from them to earn it!

How did David indicated that God does this? Paul quotes from the Old Testament where David spoke words that teach this:

(7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. (8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Here is where that is found:

Psa 32:1-2 KJV A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. (2) Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Having your sins forgiven, which is what happens when we believe Jesus' death paid for our debt of sin, is associated with God not imputing iniquity. And if He's not imputing iniquity, He must be imputing righteousness! And if He does not impute iniquity as a result of our sins being forgiven, then our forgiveness causes God to impute righteousness to us. And notice he did not say we're blessed if we love everyone to gain that blessing. He said we're blessed if our iniquities are forgiven! This is how the death of Jesus to forgive us COMES FIRST and is the greatest miracle to ever occur in our lives! Greater than life form the dead!

And AFTERWARD we see God LOVE THROUGH US in order to do the good that God always wanted us to do. But that will never be God doing it through us if we haven't been forgiven of iniquity and joined to his death to be saved from sin to begin with. And those who say otherwise are thieves and robbers and liars, and are trying to get in another way apart from the door Jesus Christ.

(9) Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. (10) How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. (11) And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: (12) And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Circumcision was a DEED that did not make him righteous, but showed HE WAS RIGHTEOUS. This is where works comes in. They are done BECAUSE we are already righteous.

People argue works since they have no revelation of this message of FAITH in the cross of Christ to deem us righteous.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

the biggest issue i have with that is not the theory, but the practice.

I agree that is your issue. But it's such an issue with you that you REFUSE TO EVEN LISTEN to someone who espouses what you call the theory. You just shut and turn them off. Whatever happened to you was obviously tragic enough that you closed down any chance of anyone showing you that true Acts 2:38 does not lead to the hypocrisy you've seen. You saw ritual. Probably in your parents by the way you talk. And you've become as unfair and judgmental as those you saw perform an act by not even listening to anyone else.

We have a recurring theme in Scripture of those claiming to be called by His Name falling out of grace, mostly through pride, it seems. So the spiritual point seems to be lost, and the literal practice becomes demanded, and the Holy Spirit leaves to start with another client nation.

And you believe that so much that you cast away the true place of the cross to allow for religious do-gooders to be righteous by their works. In one sense, i cannot blame you, since if a person's own parents cannot walk it right, one thinks, "who else can?" Parents or someone else, whatever. The point is you're closed down and deny the cross. Someone will give an account for your blood on their hands. But your problem is your unrighteous justice of tarring everyone who looks to Acts 2:38 with the same unrighteous brush.

[shazeep]

I think it is Scripturally impossible to deny that the cross demonstrates God's love for us, while we were yet sinners, and that faith without works is dead. This is not the same as "salvation by works" nor is it an attempt to deny the cross. Denying the cross is saying you love Jesus and then being blinded to "love one another."

It of course would not be right to say that Acts 2:38 believers are universally unloving, or any other adjective, since any large group is made up of different hearts; but a people become known by their fruits, and truthful cliches are developed as a witness.

Grace is an ideal we are all still working toward, i believe; we still exhibit pretty much all of the characteristics of Law, imo; one of them might be developing a law by which others must be "saved," and, possibly, deeming those that Christ would advise one to "Go, and do likewise" as being "lost," somehow, as a result of that law.

I am not denying your argument, as far as it goes; but i am judging it by its fruit.
"Every knee will bow, and every tongue confess that Christ is Lord."
This is a great confession; but it is meaningless if one does not have love to show they understand it; and we have several passages, more than one, that indicate that it is those who demonstrate Love one another that best reflect the cross--and several that indicate that the ones most loudly proclaiming a law are judged for lack of love.

And the question "If Acts 2:38 saves me, why not just wait until my deathbed to perform it?" becomes an answer, i think.