Love One Another and the Cross

[shazeep]

but i never said anything about denying the Son, Mike. If you'll quote me, i can clear that up. But surely my meaning was that many will cry "Lord, Lord" or iow have Jesus on their lips all the time, and yet be condemned.

Who might these hypocrites be?

In today's world, what would their message be?

How is it that they, crying Lord, are condemned, while we are told--by Christ Himself--to follow the Good Samaritan, an outcast?

[shazeep]

[shazeep]

It seems God is better defined in our questions, rather than our answers.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

but i never said anything about denying the Son, Mike. If you'll quote me, i can clear that up.

Here's my point: You said muslims cannot be said to be lost, and I stated their "holy" book repeatedly says God has no son and combats the concept many many times in the plainest of language. And then I said John wrote that denial of the son makes one antichrist. So, your statement saying we cannot say they're lost is groundless. It's like saying we cannot say antichrists are lost.

But surely my meaning was that many will cry "Lord, Lord" or iow have Jesus on their lips all the time, and yet be condemned.

I agree many will do that. Never disagreed. But I already said that many many times, too.

Who might these hypocrites be?

Those claiming to be christians. I never disagreed with that. But I already said that many many times, too.

In today's world, what would their message be?

How is it that they, crying Lord, are condemned, while we are told--by Christ Himself--to follow the Good Samaritan, an outcast?

I already explained all that.... if you read what I said. But I already also said that many many times, too.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

same

[shazeep]

"Here's my point: You said muslims cannot be said to be lost, and I stated their "holy" book repeatedly says God has no son and combats the concept many many times in the plainest of language."

This hypocritical approach makes perfect sense, but suffers from at least a couple of problems. You have now judged a very large group based not upon their hearts, which is how God will judge them, but upon their religion and dogma, which you do not understand. You read "God has no Son" one way, when it means something completely different to them. I would elaborate again, but you demonstrate by picking on this, and not the Qur'an's "follow Christ or be doomed" that you are looking for a reason to condemn, and not seeking where you might agree, so it would be pointless; i doubt you read it the first three times. I would wager you could not repeat it if your life depended on it. It certainly is not supported in Scripture, like you think it is.

But that ends up being irrelevant, because you fell down way back at "i am right, and they are wrong; i am qualified to judge." So of course you go and find some Scripture that supports that, and disregard the passages that condemn you; those mean something else. So, "love your enemies" is turned into "serve yourself" rather than "change yourself," and of course included in the deal is that you imagine you are able to explain Christ, when you demonstrate that you do not even understand Him.

And i can "prove" that you are lost and going to hell using Scripture, as i have said before. Of course, being a hypocrite, you will never ask me about this statement--you wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole--because after all you are scared to death of Scripture...and Muslims, and prolly just fear in general; everything but what you should fear, which is God, Whom you don't really even believe exists, and i can demonstrate that with Scripture as well.

Now i don't mean this for you, specifically; any OP led to the conclusion that "Everyone who does not believe what i do is lost" has entered into deception, in at least three demonstratable ways, and will go to hell if they do not change their minds; and God being Who He is, i expect exactly 4 people claiming to adhere to OPism to escape, as God takes the funniest things seriously, from our pov.

[shazeep]

"So, your statement saying we cannot say they're lost is groundless. It's like saying we cannot say antichrists are lost."

No, it is saying that you are not aware of the definition of Christ, and so you cannot be aware of antichrist either. I don't claim to be any better--i am a hypocrite, too. But i know that many will cry "Lord, Lord," and you must demonstrate that that is not you, which is why i ask the questions about how you determine if someone is saved, etc., expecting to get some kind of honesty because i am an idiot.

Now, if you are truly qualified to speak for Christ, i have about 5...we'll say 3 questions to ask you, that you have so far avoided

[shazeep]

but really, who are we kidding? You do not want to hear the questions; and you are scared to death of the answers, as you have already shown.

Just so you know, i am aware that it is your dogma talking, and i don't even judge you for this; we are just talking, theory, and this may not reflect your practice at all. I may come across like i know something--but i can't even hug people

For a reader's sake, i will suggest to you that if you assume you are lost, instead of saved, you will do much better than those who assume they are saved but are lost. Just that one, simple thing. If it seems like an insurmountable step to you, examine why, and get rid of that part--it is your ego, which can brook no dissension.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

"Here's my point: You said muslims cannot be said to be lost, and I stated their "holy" book repeatedly says God has no son and combats the concept many many times in the plainest of language."

This hypocritical approach makes perfect sense, but suffers from at least a couple of problems. You have now judged a very large group based not upon their hearts, which is how God will judge them, but upon their religion and dogma, which you do not understand.

No, I don't understand that these statements don't mean Muslims deny the son.

19:34 That is Jesus, the son of Mary - the word of truth about which they are in dispute.
19:35 It is not [befitting] for Allah to take a son; exalted is He! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.

Gotcha!

You read "God has no Son" one way, when it means something completely different to them.

Those words you speak are hypocrisy. There is only one way to read "God has no Son." A child could understand that. God definitely does judge by the heart, because with the heart man believes unto salvation. And their hearts believe God cannot have a Son.

Their hearts also believe Jesus is not God manifest in flesh:

Sura 43:59 “Jesus was no more than a mortal whom Allah favored and made an example to the Israelites. They are unbelievers who say God is Messiah, Mary’s son.”

It does not mean one thing to them and another thing to me. It means what it says. There are some things where explanation and a chance of varying interpretations could be involved. When someone says GOD does not have a Son, then there is no variance for interpretation.

I would elaborate again, but you demonstrate by picking on this, and not the Qur'an's "follow Christ or be doomed" that you are looking for a reason to condemn, and not seeking where you might agree, so it would be pointless;

And that is what is a lie. My heart has absolutely no concern for looking for anyone to be lost. But you reject that since you are sold out to believing a person's only reason for saying a group of people are lost is to gloat over them as though we are better than them. You have no concept that a person is just relating what the bible stated so we can seek to reach them,. If I were saying this just to say it, and not with efforts to encourage believers to reach them, I would be like the folks who say we should reject them, spit on them and not even share in compassion the gospel. I am just simply saying we need to open our eyes and stop fooling ourselves and realize those whom the bible says are lost are indeed lost and they need to hear the truth, and their blood will be on our hands if we do not inform them for the purpose of seeing them saved and redeemed like we are.

i doubt you read it the first three times. I would wager you could not repeat it if your life depended on it. It certainly is not supported in Scripture, like you think it is.

No one is as blind as someone who will not see. And this is coming from the guy who refused to discuss whose sins are covered in the epistle when it says charity covers a multitude of sins, and I asked the sins of the one showing charity or the sins of the one being shown charity. You refused to even touch on scriptures that state there's no remission of sins without shed blood of the cross. You refused to so much as discuss the reason for Law, but simply said you disagreed with me, and never heard that explanation from anyone before when I quoted 1 Timothy and Romans 8. And when I quoted the Koran as saying Jesus was not even crucified but a fake replacement was actually crucified, and wanted to discuss that,you would not even mention I said that.

How great is the darkness when darkness is considered light?

But that ends up being irrelevant, because you fell down way back at "i am right, and they are wrong; i am qualified to judge."

A lie I repeatedly exposed and will continue to expose it as such, by explaining it's not me who judged, but it's the word of God.

So of course you go and find some Scripture that supports that, and disregard the passages that condemn you;

I've discussed all scriptures you claim condemn me, but you are in a one way dialogue with yourself. You do not respond in dialogue fashion to what I say, but respond as though I never made plain statements. If you would take what I actually said and debate it, you would get no where. The only way you can condemn by view is to twist what I said, ignore statements I made about issues and state the exact opposite. And I will main expose that manner so many times as you state it.

those mean something else. So, "love your enemies" is turned into "serve yourself" rather than "change yourself," and of course included in the deal is that you imagine you are able to explain Christ, when you demonstrate that you do not even understand Him.

More lies. I repeatedly says, and will continue to do so, that we are to change and become more and more like Christ so long as we live. And all of that is necessary to win souls. But what you hate to see me raise the point that before all of that is the all important and primary truth that love stems form the cross, and God so loved us when we were unlovable and unloving, that He saved us by the cross. And to love people to be saved, as you imply, is salvation by works. OUR WORKS. Whether they're works of love or not, they're works and works do not save. FAITH THAT WORKS is what saves. Not dead faith. And not works. FAITH THAT WORKS.

And i can "prove" that you are lost and going to hell using Scripture, as i have said before. Of course, being a hypocrite, you will never ask me about this statement--you wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole--because after all you are scared to death of Scripture...and Muslims, and prolly just fear in general; everything but what you should fear, which is God, Whom you don't really even believe exists, and i can demonstrate that with Scripture as well.

Same old same old. I'd take any scripture you will present for your case and respond to it, as I have over and over again. And I will forewarn everyone who reads this, that you are the person who thinks "Allah has no Son" does not mean muslims deny the fact God has a Son and are therefore antichrist. And you are the one who refused to touch scriptures that state God's work of the cross makes us righteous, not loving deeds we perform, while at the same time I always maintained we must perform living deeds. And you are also the one who said I believed the Good Samaritan was lost when I distinctly said he was not lost because he loved his neighbour, but that his good deeds did not determine whether he was saved or lost. We are not saved by good deeds. You are the one who twists what I actually say, ignores and refuses to touch bible, and writes about things I clarified as though I never clarified anything to see you continue to distort what I believe.

So, shazeep (muslim sounding name), bring it on! Show me the scriptures that claim I am lost and do not even believe in God. Bring them on! And watch me respond with scriptures you won't touch, and watch my explanations you will ignore and see you write as though I never said them.

Now i don't mean this for you, specifically; any OP led to the conclusion that "Everyone who does not believe what i do is lost" has entered into deception,

And here you again do the famous shazeep shuffle. You IGNORE my explanation that it has nothing to do with those who agree or disagree with what I believe. Even if what I believe is the truth, it's not an issue of believing what I believe, it's focus where it should be is believing what the Bible says.

And there are issues that we do not have to agree on in order to be saved. But the elements of the Gospel concerning the death, burial and resurrection (that muslims don't even believe occurred!), and the other principles listed in Hebrews 6 are musts. And muslims deny each one of them as they are listed in Hebrews 6.

in at least three demonstratable ways, and will go to hell if they do not change their minds; and God being Who He is, i expect exactly 4 people claiming to adhere to OPism to escape, as God takes the funniest things seriously, from our pov.

So present your scriptures that prove I am lost, and let us all watch how you twist, distort and ignore what I will say in response.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

"So, your statement saying we cannot say they're lost is groundless. It's like saying we cannot say antichrists are lost."

No, it is saying that you are not aware of the definition of Christ, and so you cannot be aware of antichrist either.

LIE!

Christ means MESSIAH. ANOINTED ONE. And Christ is ANOINTED as SON OF GOD.


Mat 3:16-17 KJV And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: (17) And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

You like to pawn the word CHRIST and ANOINTED ONE off to a mere anointing which you believe muslims agree with concerning Christ. And they do believe Hew was anointed! But his anointing as SON OF GOD is something they fiercely reject, which is what John associated antichrist with in his epistles. Denying the SON OF GOD is being anti-anointed-one.

I don't claim to be any better--i am a hypocrite, too.

\

Yes, you made yourself sink into a pessimist's hole of despair where you think all of us are lost and in darkness. That's why you need to see the source of true righteousness more than anyone on the forum right now.

But i know that many will cry "Lord, Lord," and you must demonstrate that that is not you, which is why i ask the questions about how you determine if someone is saved, etc., expecting to get some kind of honesty because i am an idiot.

I already explained why they cry LORD LORD, and I did in in depth. I compared it with Matt 16 and went on, while you did not, to what Christ said later in the same context about the sand and rock foundations of the houses.

Now, if you are truly qualified to speak for Christ, i have about 5...we'll say 3 questions to ask you, that you have so far avoided

Let's start afresh, present them. But let me note you have ignored dozens of statements I made. So you are being disengenuous and have done nothing to relieve that reputation.