New Birth

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Who can "us" be, but people who have narrowed down the Word to some few verses that cannot be argued against--as Mike did with me earlier--while ignoring the overall scope of the Message? How is this not seeing you will not see, if you run to Paul to answer Christ? Discovering some unique new division of us and them, while it might be defended, just leads to a new sect, and hardly to Christ. At least it appears so by the fruit, with all due respect.

Sorry the whole word shows the truth. And I ignored nothing. When I ask you to show what you accuse me of ignoring so we can deal with it, you're gone without discussion. You can't handle actual discussion of the word. Ramble and you're fine. But actual dealing with the word and you're outta here.

[shazeep]

I'm sure you have convinced yourself of this, but when i answer with Scripture--at several points--to "who is righteous?" for example, and your reply to the Scriptural quote is "why do you have to answer like that?" you might wanna take a look at that.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

I'm sure you have convinced yourself of this, but when i answer with Scripture--at several points--to "who is righteous?" for example, and your reply to the Scriptural quote is "why do you have to answer like that?" you might wanna take a look at that.

I'll look back. But I recall noting those who are righteous are those who claimed the work of the cross, and not their own works, to obtain righteousness. You willing to discuss that?

[shazeep]

"What makes us righteous?"

"Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as He is righteous."

[shazeep]

"What remits sins?"

"A good deed covers many sins."

[shazeep]

The fact that these are excluded for whatever reason makes them no less Scriptural. Are they the whole story? No, but Christ Himself says "9/10ths of the law and prophets," which you somehow interpret as a curse of following the law? So that you may insist upon your tenth, and all others be damned?

[Esaias]

Shazeep, 9/10ths (where's that in the Bible?) is still not a whole. We aren't gonna be graded on a curve.

Nobody is righteous without the Spirit, because Paul says those who are in the flesh CANNOT PLEASE GOD, but "you are not in the flesh IF the Holy Spirit is in you."

So, WHO HAS HOLY SPIRIT, ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE?

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by shazeep

"What remits sins?"

"A good deed covers many sins."

"love covers all sin Proverbs 10:12"

I personally believe the love referred to, is when Christ died for all of us. I don't think anyone here will disagree with you on the importance of love, but we must understand who's love. Without God there is no love. Scripture says if we love him we will keep his commandments. This isn't about being legalistic and earning our salvation, but it is about a love for God that causes us to want to know him and obey him.

In those cases where someone truly has never heard the truth; I would never condemn them to hell, but it is God who they will stand before. I would hate to stand before God having rejected God's word for some deeper enlightenment I received from my human comprehension about man's love.

When I stand before God I want to have adhered to God's word and also taught others to as well. Any deeper illumination than the word reveals is not for us, but for God. The scripture is our roadmap to a relationship to God and to salvation. It is not our own love that we need, but the love of God shone into our lives. Therefore it isn't our works that saves us, but the love and mercy of God that brings about obedience and good outward works in our lives.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

"What makes us righteous?"

"Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as He is righteous."

That does not show what makes us righteous. I already deal;t with that. And I showed God grants HIS PERSONAL righteousness to a person without requiring ANY WORKS of righteousness on our part. The verse you quoted merely states that the ones ALREADY MADE righteous will do righteous things.

The idea that this verse shows HOW we are made righteous implies we do righteous deeds to BECOME righteous, and that is salvation by works. After I explained these sorts of responses you replied stating that means we can await death and then suddenly seek salvation to be righteous. I also replied to that already, saying Romans 1 teaches when we receive truth and hold it in unrighteousness, by refusing to obey the truth and serve God now instead of waiting til our deathbeds, God considers that and gives one over to a reprobate mind. So, no, one cannot wait til their deathbed.

So, I asked you to explain this verse:

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

And you did not explain it by said I should obey it. I noted I did, since it is teaching we are not saved by works of OUR righteousness, in order to support my statement that John stated righteous people are those who do righteousness, but that does not mean we BECOME righteous by DOING righteous deeds.

All these verses show God gives HIS righteousness to us and we do not do righteous things to earn it by works.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


We are made righteous BY FAITH not works.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

"What remits sins?"

"A good deed covers many sins."

Whose sins does the good deed cover? The doer or the receiver? You claim you answered that but I never saw it. So humour me and repeat it if you did. I claim this is speaking about us dealing with people. WE COVER THEIR SINS, not see our own covered by good deeds. We do not love people to impress God enough so He will pardon our sins by that love we exert. That is salvation by works. It is US FORGIVING OTHERS.

Why do you not quote these verses?

Hebrews 10:17-18 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.