Love One Another and the Cross

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Hey, I asked to chat. You refused. YOU can judge that, not me. lol

i just meant that another perspective might be more productive at this point. The spirit of what we are getting at is kind of difficult to put into words; i think it is embodied in one's, in a believers emotional response to being told that they are lost--the absence of love there, which is why i said that you were lost. I mean, how did that make you feel?

But you could review your position on "Love is 9/10ths of the law and prophets" if you would; the phrase is repeated too often here to make a search effective. And "9/10ths" is even giving me trouble in Bible search, lol. I doubt you mean it the way i rephrased it, do you?

[CC1]

I only read the first few posts on this thread and won't get involved other than putting this two cents in;

The idea of universal reconiliation is so directly opposite of biblical teaching it is really not debatable. Anyone thinking that just "love" is the doctrine of salvation is so far removed from reality I don't think any kind of debate is possible. Just like trying to debate salvation with a atheist. No common ground to start from.

Saying one does not have to make a conscious decision to accept the work of Christ, repent of their sins, etc directly contradicts biblical teaching and therefore is error. It is a new age / politically correct way to look at things because you can feel good that nobody goes to hell and everybody has a happy ending. Again somethign directly opposed to biblical teaching in every way.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by CC1

I only read the first few posts on this thread and won't get involved other than putting this two cents in;

The idea of universal reconiliation is so directly opposite of biblical teaching it is really not debatable. Anyone thinking that just "love" is the doctrine of salvation is so far removed from reality I don't think any kind of debate is possible. Just like trying to debate salvation with a atheist. No common ground to start from.

Saying one does not have to make a conscious decision to accept the work of Christ, repent of their sins, etc directly contradicts biblical teaching and therefore is error. It is a new age / politically correct way to look at things because you can feel good that nobody goes to hell and everybody has a happy ending. Again somethign directly opposed to biblical teaching in every way.

fair enough--i wouldn't go there myself. I think this is more about that "conscious decision," and how that is defined. Wouldn't the many who cry "Lord, Lord" say that they had made this conscious decision? And do we not have several parables that indicate people who are not generally considered acceptable--Samaritans and the like; sons who verbally refuse to serve, etc--are in fact doing what God wants?

So this is hardly directly opposed to Scripture. In fact, i would say that "Do not be deceived, little children..." amounts to a mandate.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i just meant that another perspective might be more productive at this point. The spirit of what we are getting at is kind of difficult to put into words; i think it is embodied in one's, in a believers emotional response to being told that they are lost--the absence of love there, which is why i said that you were lost. I mean, how did that make you feel?

But you could review your position on "Love is 9/10ths of the law and prophets" if you would; the phrase is repeated too often here to make a search effective. And "9/10ths" is even giving me trouble in Bible search, lol. I doubt you mean it the way i rephrased it, do you?

There's no issue in love being 9/10's of law. So what? I agree. But we're not saved by loving people. That's salvation by works. We're saved by the blood. I think we'll lose our salvation by not loving people or God. But that doesn't save us. Perhaps that's the point of what i call your confusion.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

There's no issue in love being 9/10's of law. So what? I agree. But we're not saved by loving people. That's salvation by works. We're saved by the blood. I think we'll lose our salvation by not loving people or God. But that doesn't save us. Perhaps that's the point of what i call your confusion.

hmm, i'd say that it seems to me that "we're saved by loving people" is exactly what the passage at least suggests; although i grant you that "love God" comes first there--Love God and your neighbor; this is 9/10ths of the law and prophets if i quote that correctly. Although it is restated elsewhere as the whole of the law and prophets--or iow, the whole point, at least imo.

And if it stood alone, that would be one thing; but Little children, do not be deceived..., et al, many others, makes the case compelling. Don't misunderstand me though; can people come to Christ via an OP Acts 2:38 experience, genuinely? I think the testimonies of a couple new arrivals here at AFF, and the countless others that we are mostly all personal witness to, indicate that surely they can.

And at the other extreme, could someone reject the institutional concept of Christ--the First Son, possibly--and decide that their good works would suffice for salvation? Of course. I think even believers can fall into this. I don't think one could go very far down this path without being confronted with the fact that they owed a debt for past sins, and needed Christ for this, but i would insist upon Christ the Spirit here--iow their remorse would effect a change in them, in their heart, they would def be more humble, would not enter into that sin in the future, would be able to say "I'm sorry," and admit that sin to others...which is easy to preach, but hard to do.

I apologize for all the chain-yanking, btw, i am bad about tromping on other's egos, and i can't even claim ignorance

So, understand that i am still kind of working this out. A "bloodless" salvation is to be avoided; but a genuine "i am sorry, i won't do that again" and recognizing that that still does not atone for doing it the first time--relenting, and going to work in the vineyard anyway, after saying you would not, possibly--seems preferable to someone proclaiming Acts 2:38 from fear of hell, and then hypocritically flitting about saying Lord, Lord all the time.

[shazeep]

Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Do not bring your servant into judgment, for no one living is righteous before you.

As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one."

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

hmm, i'd say that it seems to me that "we're saved by loving people" is exactly what the passage at least suggests;

And that is salvation by works. Again, how is it not? Loving people is not just in word but in deed. And so a deed we commit makes us righteous and saves us. That says WE initiate the salvation, not God. WE move God to EARN righteousness by how much we just loved people and God. And so that removes the need for the work of the cross. That removes every verse from the bible that states He grants gives us His righteousness because Jesus took our sins. It removes the scriptures that says it's not of works of righteousness that we are saved but rather by His grace through faith. You are saying OUR works of righteousness in loving people are what saves us and makes us righteous.

That theology renders seeking first God's righteousness to mean we must try to mimic how good God is rather than BELIEVING God to grant us righteousness without doing one single good deed of love to achieve it.

Tit 3:5 KJV Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Mercy means we did not deserve it. But you are saying we DESERVE it by our deeds of love.

Rom 9:16 KJV So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Willing and running refer to exerting ourselves in some fashion to be right with God which describes righteousness. being right with God. We do good deeds of love that God weighs out and says it's enough to make us righteous, and POOF! we earned righteousness by works.

2Co 5:21 KJV For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Never does the word say we love people that we might become the righteousness of God. It always attributes holding righteousness to the exertion and work Jesus did on the cross. Jesus was made sin when He died on the cross so we might be made the righteousness of God.

Rom 5:17-19 KJV For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Where are our acts of love noted here as the cause for us being righteous? The cause for our sinfulness is Adam's act of disobedience. By the same token, the cause for our righteousness is one man's obedience, the obedience of Jesus Christ. I am not made righteous by MY act of obedience to a law that says love one another. I am made righteous by Jesus' act of obedience in the death of the cross.

After we read Jesus suffered due to OUR iniquity and He was bruised for OUR transgressions, we read:

Isa 53:11 KJV He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

His travail, not our acts of love, satisfied God when it came to the question of our acceptance or not. He justified us by His death on the cross in our places, and itw as not our acts of love that justified us.

You are espousing salvation by works.

although i grant you that "love God" comes first there--Love God and your neighbor; this is 9/10ths of the law and prophets if i quote that correctly. Although it is restated elsewhere as the whole of the law and prophets--or iow, the whole point, at least imo.

I agree! But no where does that bible say that saves us. That's the point you keep missing. Why does the simple thought that love is 9/10's of the mean move you to say our acts of love save us?

And if it stood alone, that would be one thing; but Little children, do not be deceived..., et al, many others, makes the case compelling. Don't misunderstand me though; can people come to Christ via an OP Acts 2:38 experience, genuinely? I think the testimonies of a couple new arrivals here at AFF, and the countless others that we are mostly all personal witness to, indicate that surely they can.

That implies there are many ways to come to God, and that's not true.

And at the other extreme, could someone reject the institutional concept of Christ--the First Son, possibly--and decide that their good works would suffice for salvation? Of course. I think even believers can fall into this. I don't think one could go very far down this path without being confronted with the fact that they owed a debt for past sins, and needed Christ for this, but i would insist upon Christ the Spirit here--iow their remorse would effect a change in them, in their heart, they would def be more humble, would not enter into that sin in the future, would be able to say "I'm sorry," and admit that sin to others...which is easy to preach, but hard to do.

I apologize for all the chain-yanking, btw, i am bad about tromping on other's egos, and i can't even claim ignorance

So, understand that i am still kind of working this out. A "bloodless" salvation is to be avoided;

But how is a bloodless gospel not avoided when our acts of love save us, and there is no indication whatsoever in such an explanation that the death of Christ makes atonement and saves us?

but a genuine "i am sorry, i won't do that again" and recognizing that that still does not atone for doing it the first time--relenting, and going to work in the vineyard anyway, after saying you would not, possibly--seems preferable to someone proclaiming Acts 2:38 from fear of hell, and then hypocritically flitting about saying Lord, Lord all the time.

I totally agree that when Acts 2:38 is obeyed out of a fear of hell, followed by an empty "Lord Lord" is the wrong way. I never said otherwise.

But acts of love do not save us. Yes, we sure do need them AFTER God GRANTS us righteousness, or we lose the righteousness God gave us freely. But the cause for granting us righteous is the act of love Jesus did on the cross. As far as salvation goes, and what is the root cause of receiving righteousness, JESUS, NOT WE, DID WHAT MAKES GOD HAPPY WITH US. the only work we can do, in Jesus' own words, is BELIEVE.

Joh 6:28-29 KJV Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? (29) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Now, you usually say at this point that I am proposing a mouth-piece of confessions that saves, and that is absolutely not the case. Absolutely not! It is actual belief in our hearts THAT ONLY GOD CAN SEE, and we can only take people's word for which amounts to nothing, really.

So far as what your theology seems to propose, I believe this passage best teaches it is incorrect:

Rom 3:20-22 KJV Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight [color=red][You said love is 9/10ths of the law][/color=red]: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

You said loving each other is 9/10ths of the law. More technically it is 6/10ths, as the last six commandments regard love toward each other, and the first 4 regard love toward God. Righteousness of the LAW is the love the Law demanded. But Paul said those deeds of love toward one another do not justify us. There is a righteousness that is apart from the law.... it is called the righteousness OF GOD. God's personal righteousness. And He GRANTS it to us when we genuinely BELIEVE Christ's death and act of love toward us in dying in our places, is what actually saves us. And if we think OUR acts of love save us in as little as two cents' worth of earnings, we are lost. We have to believe Christ's act of love alone saves us.

I think this is why you cannot see Muslims lost because they deny the work of the cross. If I believed that MY acts of love SAVE ME, then I do not see a definite and absolute need for faith in the cross where Jesus' work saves, and I would think those who show acts of love can be saved by those acts without the cross, too.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Little children, let no one deceive you! The one who does what is right is righteous, just as He is righteous.

Exactly. But that does not say the doing of righteousness is what EARNED us righteousness, for it cannot be earned anyway. It is saying, in context with all the rest of the bible, not contradicting the rest of it, that the one who has already been made righteous will do righteous deeds, and that is how we know they're righteous. It showing EVIDENCE of someone already made righteous, and not showing the root cause of what made such a person righteous. It only shows the cause for being able to say one is righteous.

Do not bring your servant into judgment, for no one living is righteous before you.

During Old Testament times, there was no gift of righteousness offered by grace, so none were righteous. There is now!

As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one."

The context of that verse in Romans 3 is a list of Old Testament passages that prove there was no one made righteous by the Law, since those verses were from the law and written to those under law.

Rom 3:9-20 KJV What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; (10) As it is written,
[NOW PAUL LISTS OLD TESTAMENT PROOFS TO SUBSTANTIATE HIS CLAIM HE JUST MADE]

There is none righteous, no, not one: (PSALM 14:3)
(11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (PSALM 14:2)
(12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable;
there is none that doeth good, no, not one.(PSALM 14:3)
(13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: (PSALM 5:9)
(14) Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: (PSALM 10:7)
(15) Their feet are swift to shed blood: (ISA. 59:7)
(16) Destruction and misery are in their ways: (ISA. 59:7)
(17) And the way of peace have they not known: (ISA. 59:8)
(18) There is no fear of God before their eyes.(PSALM 36:1)

[Now paul goes back to his estimation of what those verses prove]
(19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. (20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Notice the reason Paul gave for listing these statements from Law. To prove that NO FLESH can be justified by Law. He showed that LAW's deeds cannot save. They cannot justify. After having provided detailed laws to love, Paul said God proved man cannot obey them. IF MAN COULD SUCCESSFULLY OBEY THEM AND NOT FAIL, MAN WOULD BE RIGHTEOUS BY WORKS WITHOUT THE BLOOD OF THE CROSS. But man cannot, and all that list proves it.

That's why, after saying Law could not make man righteous, the SAME chapter says this:

Rom 3:20-26 KJV Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

It would be SELF righteousness if we could successfully work the good deeds of love as law demanded. But no one can be that successful. So it doesn't work.

So, you took Romans 3:10 out of context.

[shazeep]

ok, well i am comfortable with you condemning Good Samaritans (and Muslims, Catholics, Baptists, and prolly most OPs), and i will keep running from proselytizing Christians

[shazeep]

"A" is for Anarchy