Make it easier shazeep and just toss the bible altogether.
You consistently stumble at the cross. Nuff said.
yes ok ty for your interest in this matter Mr Blume, your timely and heartfelt comments are always etc etc.
Zaccheus came up @ Bible study tonight; not sure if this was the thread that i proclaimed "all salvation in Scripture is future tense," but i'll deal with that later...
1He entered Jericho and was passing through. 2There was a man named Zacchaeus who was a chief tax collector, and he was rich. 3He was trying to see who Jesus was, but he was not able because of the crowd, since he was a short man. 4So running ahead, he climbed up a sycamore tree to see Jesus, since He was about to pass that way. 5When Jesus came to the place, He looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, hurry and come down because today I must stay at your house.”
6So he quickly came down and welcomed Him joyfully. 7All who saw it began to complain,a “He’s gone to lodge with a sinful man! ”
8But Zacchaeus stood there and said to the Lord, “Look, I’ll giveb half of my possessions to the poor,c Lord! And if I have extortedd anything from anyone, I’ll paye back four times as much! ”f
9“Today salvationg has come to this house,” Jesus told him, “because he too is a son of Abraham.h 10For the •Son of Man has come to seek and to save the lost.”i,j
So, here we have a couple (at least) interesting points for our ongoing debate; Zaccheus is proclaimed "saved" by--to all appearances--his works, by Christ, present tense. I haven't lexiconed the verses yet to verify that the same word is used in other instances of "salvation," but i found this intriguing in light of the OP position on salvation. Here we have salvation w/o calling on Christ's Name, baptism, tongues, none of that. (And contrasted with the nobleman who asked Christ what else he must do to attain salvation, it gets even more interesting)
I'm not even sure what i might comment here--other than "salvation is not for humans to define"--but i'll sleep on it.
So whats the advocacy here? can we identify those who are in need of salvation? or is that judgement?
my advocacy would be drop the proselytizing, and start learning how to love, which i at least only have the poorest grasp of. Can we id those? I would say yes; they are everyone, and clues for this are throughout Scripture--
there are none righteous, no, not one
all have sinned and come short
if you then, being evil... (said to an Apostle!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd
or is that judgement?
see how when you change/stop trying to target people for special treatment, and treat everyone special, the question becomes moot, but beam in your eye and all that sure seems to apply here.
(Being a pastor might seem to complicate this dynamic, but it does not. Christ refused an earthly crown, and many pastors unwittingly or otherwise put one on, to their detriment, imo)
yes ok ty for your interest in this matter Mr Blume, your timely and heartfelt comments are always etc etc.
Zaccheus came up @ Bible study tonight; not sure if this was the thread that i proclaimed "all salvation in Scripture is future tense," but i'll deal with that later...
1He entered Jericho and was passing through. 2There was a man named Zacchaeus who was a chief tax collector, and he was rich. 3He was trying to see who Jesus was, but he was not able because of the crowd, since he was a short man. 4So running ahead, he climbed up a sycamore tree to see Jesus, since He was about to pass that way. 5When Jesus came to the place, He looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, hurry and come down because today I must stay at your house.”
6So he quickly came down and welcomed Him joyfully. 7All who saw it began to complain,a “He’s gone to lodge with a sinful man! ”
8But Zacchaeus stood there and said to the Lord, “Look, I’ll giveb half of my possessions to the poor,c Lord! And if I have extortedd anything from anyone, I’ll paye back four times as much! ”f
9“Today salvationg has come to this house,” Jesus told him, “because he too is a son of Abraham.h 10For the •Son of Man has come to seek and to save the lost.”i,j
So, here we have a couple (at least) interesting points for our ongoing debate; Zaccheus is proclaimed "saved" by--to all appearances--his works, by Christ, present tense. I haven't lexiconed the verses yet to verify that the same word is used in other instances of "salvation," but i found this intriguing in light of the OP position on salvation. Here we have salvation w/o calling on Christ's Name, baptism, tongues, none of that. (And contrasted with the nobleman who asked Christ what else he must do to attain salvation, it gets even more interesting)
I'm not even sure what i might comment here--other than "salvation is not for humans to define"--but i'll sleep on it.
Luke 19:8-10 KJV And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold. (9) And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. (10) For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Jesus said HE CAME to save that which is lost, and did not say Zacchaeus' good works saved himself.
Jesus did not say Zacchaeus' giving of goods he stole is what saved him. He said He was there to bring salvation to Zacchaeus and the man was willing to receive it because of his repentance.
Giving all the goods to those from whom he stole goods was not saving him,. but was revealing the man realized his sinfulness and he was not longer covetous. It shows how he was ready to receive the gospel.
But, make it out to be salvation by works all you want. It's yours toward whatever your heart wants to lean.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
ok i will ty--i don't believe in salvation by works; obv Z had a change of heart--but I'm just quoting Scripture. So let's ignore that part and focus on the rest, for now. You cannot prove that Z to the G thing, so no fair (but yes, i agree that is likely; but i get no breaks on my 'likelies,' so... )
ok i will ty--i don't believe in salvation by works;
Anything except the blood of Jesus being the work to save us is salvation by works. Even our acts of love.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
No one said any different--that is in your mind, wadr.
Sorry, you did.
Case in point:
Quote:
mm, i'd say that it seems to me that "we're saved by loving people" is exactly what the passage at least suggests;
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
my advocacy would be drop the proselytizing, and start learning how to love, which i at least only have the poorest grasp of. Can we id those? I would say yes; they are everyone, and clues for this are throughout Scripture--
there are none righteous, no, not one
all have sinned and come short
if you then, being evil... (said to an Apostle!)
see how when you change/stop trying to target people for special treatment, and treat everyone special, the question becomes moot, but beam in your eye and all that sure seems to apply here.
(Being a pastor might seem to complicate this dynamic, but it does not. Christ refused an earthly crown, and many pastors unwittingly or otherwise put one on, to their detriment, imo)
How do you reconcile the command of Jesus to go into all the world.... (Mt 29 and Mark 16) with your view there be no "proselytizing".
Personally I would use the word evangelize.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
i don't think there is even any arguing that that is how the passage reads; but i have been convicted for some time now that a person's heart is revealed in how they interpret Scripture.
How do you reconcile the command of Jesus to go into all the world.... (Mt 29 and Mark 16) with your view there be no "proselytizing".
Personally I would use the word evangelize.
to me it is the difference in telling and showing; but i wouldn't disagree that there is a time for even telling--to a heart open to receiving, not cornering strangers. A contemplation of the differences in attitude, brazenness v humility, strikes me as telling also.
When can one's "beam" from their own eye be said to be removed? If i tell Mike that he is lost--and i believe that he is, hopelessly, lost--based upon some Scripture that i have read, then does it follow that i have judged rightly? After all, i read it in Scripture--so the Bible has judged him, not me. Mike needs my help; i am evangelizing him. Surely i am doing the Lord's work, yes?
ok i will ty--i don't believe in salvation by works; obv Z had a change of heart--but I'm just quoting Scripture. So let's ignore that part and focus on the rest, for now. You cannot prove that Z to the G thing, so no fair (but yes, i agree that is likely; but i get no breaks on my 'likelies,' so... 
)
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