Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume
I'm explaining the overall detailed actual teaching about salvation...
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really?
i had all that stuff memorized at like, 14, Mike. Yes, i am aware that we are speaking at cross purposes; please see that i could make the same accusations at you. I suspect the Pharisee, Paul, was allowed to write the NT for a very good reason; and i am not the only one mentioning the Christ/Paul dichotomy to you. Is anything Paul said "wrong," per se? No. What layman could "prove" a lawyer wrong, in court?
I understand your interpretation of "judgement," and i have noted the confusion there--there is obviously a difference in judgement and condemnation or accusation, but we use the words interchangeably, and Scripture seems to also. I guess i need to go lex that, don't know why i haven't already, but it would be clearer if you would use the words
accusation or
condemnation when you mean that, rather than
judgement, which occurs privately, in one's mind--and is bad enough on its own, at least when it is not righteous.
Your "explanation," which is really an opinion, at Zaccheus fails imo because we are talking about Scripture, and this is a complete little vignette with Christ and a sinner, that does not fit with the OP--or any other religious model's--requirements for "salvation" as they define it. Z didn't make any religious declarations, or ask to be baptized, speak in tongues, or even ask forgiveness--and this is not some story book, this is in Scripture.
There would be no reason to exclude these elements, if they were so vital--we are talking about a man's soul here, and the souls of countless others who would read of Z. That i pretty much agree with you that all those things likely occurred in Zs life at some later time is beside the point. I am struck by the passage myself, as it is the only occurrence i know of where salvation is proclaimed in the now--but there might be others. For now, i am putting it down to that being Christ, and so He can do that if He wants, but Paul cannot. And that i doubt we even get what salvation really is.
Now, i have gone out of my way to avoid being rude, and have been called everything under the sun by you, an ordained pastor? Which i think goes to the heart of the matter, but i have plenty of ego to go around, so nevermind.
You are not the arbiter of salvation, and you are abusing Scripture when you decide that you have found some verse that qualifies you to accuse and condemn people you have never even met; and you are hardly alone in this pov--my immediate family is sick with them.
I don't hold grudges, and see that things people insist upon when young have a way of changing as they get older; sometimes. But you guys ignorantly insisting all Baptists are lost or whatever might see that a person hardens their heart on purpose. It is a conscious choice. My dad just died, and his heart never softened, that i could discern; and it was not pretty, Mike. Aside from being allowed to witness coming here has not been a blast for me or anything, either--i don't need you to believe like i do. Sorry for the book.
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