Rock Hudson Repented Before His Death

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by houston

What a mess. To be saved in your sins and not from them.

I come across that attitude all the time amongst the reformed brethren.
"I am the scum of the earth worthy of hellfire and damnation. Now let me tell you the good news."

Sanctification is the process of salvation. We are an unfinished work. In one sense my children are perfect---I wouldn't want them to be anything other than what they are---yet there are lots of things I hope and expect will change and develop and mature in them.

My eleven-year-old son is a great kid, I love him dearly, would lay my life down for him---he's perfect in my eyes, yet this morning he admitted to me that he didn't finish his homework after I asked him last night did he have any. He either lied to me or just was irresponsible and negligent. Either way his humanity surfaced his morning. There's a consequence for what he did---won't get it done in time (he was feverishly trying to finish at the breakfast table), a bad grade for getting it done too quickly and being sloppy with his answers, and certainly being grounded from video games today.

I didn't kick him out of the house, disown him, go to the courthouse to have his name changed so that he no longer bears my family name. I dropped him off at his bus stop, we prayed before he got out of the car, and I told him I loved him.

My Heavenly Father is infinitely a much better father than me. He loves me as His son, I bear His name. In one sense He loves me as I am, yet His sanctifying work in me is helping me to grow and mature as I walk with Him. After all of these years I'm still growing, still learning, still maturing.

My 16-year-old daughter has grown so much. It's hard to believe she's driving now! But she's a teenager, and there is a lot of growing up to do. In one sense I don't want her to be anybody else but her! Yet I sure hope some things change in her the next couple of years. If those things don't change, we are going to have some issues. In fact we already do---but I would never think of kicking her to the curb and disowning her.

My 22-year-old son is a man now. Married, member of the Air Force, traveled the world, smarter, wiser, more mature. He's not a father yet but will be someday I'm sure. He is the son anyone could ever wish for. Yet on Skype the other day he admitted to me some of his faults. I didn't respond by saying---"I'm ashamed to be your father! Don't ever talk to me again!"

We are saved and sanctified. God is working in us, changing us, maturing us, growing us. Why does James say "confess your faults one to another"? Christians have faults, weaknesses, shortcomings, failures, mistakes, sins. We get saved and are regenerated being born of the Spirit. But the outer man remains, the carnal man still exists. We aren't automatically transformed into the stature of Jesus. It begins. Peter says "add to" your faith, he lists several steps of maturity as we add to our faith.

Mature adults still can slip and fall, they just don't fall as much as a toddler. I nearly fell the other day when I stood up with a leg that had gone to sleep. Stumbling, falling, tripping, missteps can happen to anyone at any age. If a grown adult falls a lot, he needs to seek help, there is something seriously wrong. But to act like Christians, even mature Christians don't sin is silly.

Of course you all want to couch that in the most extreme terms---that I preach that people can live anyway they want and it doesn't matter to God---or that people can remain swimming in a cesspool of debauchery and wantonness---or that people can't overcome or be victorious. It's not true. But say on. It helps you champion the cause of holiness and righteousness that you so vigorously believe in (so do I but you don't want to believe that).

If I err, I will err on the side of God's longsuffering and lovingkindness.

The NT is not an updated OT. Striving for goodness and perfection, holiness and sinlessness was a losing proposition in the OT. Jesus came to fulfill all that we couldn't so that we could walk by faith and love with peace and joy that we are clothed with HIS righteousness and that we are filled with HIS Holy Spirit. We can overcome and become more than conquerors because of what HE did. We walk by faith not by sight and we are empowered to live lives pleasing to Him.

Every day we fall short of the glory of God, but it's okay, no need to sweat it, He sees my repentant heart, hears my honest confession, and it's accounted to me as righteousness because my faith isn't in my ability to bat 1.000, it's in that Jesus batted 1.000 and He graciously imputed that righteousness to me by faith.

So go ahead and define me and what I believe how you want or in a way that helps you display your Apostolic chops. But I know who I am and whose I am.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Sanctification is the process of salvation. We are an unfinished work. In one sense my children are perfect---I wouldn't want them to be anything other than what they are---yet there are lots of things I hope and expect will change and develop and mature in them.

My eleven-year-old son is a great kid, I love him dearly, would lay my life down for him---he's perfect in my eyes, yet this morning he admitted to me that he didn't finish his homework after I asked him last night did he have any. He either lied to me or just was irresponsible and negligent. Either way his humanity surfaced his morning. There's a consequence for what he did---won't get it done in time (he was feverishly trying to finish at the breakfast table), a bad grade for getting it done too quickly and being sloppy with his answers, and certainly being grounded from video games today.

I didn't kick him out of the house, disown him, go to the courthouse to have his name changed so that he no longer bears my family name. I dropped him off at his bus stop, we prayed before he got out of the car, and I told him I loved him.

My Heavenly Father is infinitely a much better father than me. He loves me as His son, I bear His name. In one sense He loves me as I am, yet His sanctifying work in me is helping me to grow and mature as I walk with Him. After all of these years I'm still growing, still learning, still maturing.

My 16-year-old daughter has grown so much. It's hard to believe she's driving now! But she's a teenager, and there is a lot of growing up to do. In one sense I don't want her to be anybody else but her! Yet I sure hope some things change in her the next couple of years. If those things don't change, we are going to have some issues. In fact we already do---but I would never think of kicking her to the curb and disowning her.

My 22-year-old son is a man now. Married, member of the Air Force, traveled the world, smarter, wiser, more mature. He's not a father yet but will be someday I'm sure. He is the son anyone could ever wish for. Yet on Skype the other day he admitted to me some of his faults. I didn't respond by saying---"I'm ashamed to be your father! Don't ever talk to me again!"

We are saved and sanctified. God is working in us, changing us, maturing us, growing us. Why does James say "confess your faults one to another"? Christians have faults, weaknesses, shortcomings, failures, mistakes, sins. We get saved and are regenerated being born of the Spirit. But the outer man remains, the carnal man still exists. We aren't automatically transformed into the stature of Jesus. It begins. Peter says "add to" your faith, he lists several steps of maturity as we add to our faith.

Mature adults still can slip and fall, they just don't fall as much as a toddler. I nearly fell the other day when I stood up with a leg that had gone to sleep. Stumbling, falling, tripping, missteps can happen to anyone at any age. If a grown adult falls a lot, he needs to seek help, there is something seriously wrong. But to act like Christians, even mature Christians don't sin is silly.

Of course you all want to couch that in the most extreme terms---that I preach that people can live anyway they want and it doesn't matter to God---or that people can remain swimming in a cesspool of debauchery and wantonness---or that people can't overcome or be victorious. It's not true. But say on. It helps you champion the cause of holiness and righteousness that you so vigorously believe in (so do I but you don't want to believe that).

If I err, I will err on the side of God's longsuffering and lovingkindness.

The NT is not an updated OT. Striving for goodness and perfection, holiness and sinlessness was a losing proposition in the OT. Jesus came to fulfill all that we couldn't so that we could walk by faith and love with peace and joy that we are clothed with HIS righteousness and that we are filled with HIS Holy Spirit. We can overcome and become more than conquerors because of what HE did. We walk by faith not by sight and we are empowered to live lives pleasing to Him.

Every day we fall short of the glory of God, but it's okay, no need to sweat it, He sees my repentant heart, hears my honest confession, and it's accounted to me as righteousness because my faith isn't in my ability to bat 1.000, it's in that Jesus batted 1.000 and He graciously imputed that righteousness to me by faith.

So go ahead and define me and what I believe how you want or in a way that helps you display your Apostolic chops. But I know who I am and whose I am.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Explain to me what Paul meant when he called himself chief of sinners.

I did, at least twice. Yet, just like someone who is in a cult, your cognitive dissonance will not allow you to focus on something contrary to your belief system. First, before, principal, most important. Contracted superlative of pro; foremost. Protos the Greek word translated as Chief indicates first in order. You are saying that the Apostle is telling his readers that he is either the worst of the worst currently in his own lifetime. Or he is saying that he is even far more a sinner than Adam. Meaning the use of protos would be first in order of all who sin. Do you see the problem with what you are teaching? You are teaching that Paul was saying that he was the first of all sinners? But in Romans 6:1 Paul says shall we continue sinning so that grace may increase? Within your teaching this verse is a contradiction to Paul saying that he was wretched and a foremost among 100% of the sinners.Hence the reason why I continue to call what you believe a Bipolar form of Christendom.
You believe that you are currently worthless, wretched, and have capabilities within you to blow out at any given second. Therefore you don't trust a true conversion in anyone else. I know I know, you are going to say that I misrepresent you, but I'm just drawing conclusions from all that you have posted. You flip flop between two poles. One side of your mouth you claim the Christian grows, then out of the other the Christian fails. Bro, that is a straight up contradiction. In 1 Timothy 1:13 Paul points out that he was once a blasphemer, not the chief of blasphemy. You are trying to refute the words of Paul by saying that it wasn't ONCE, but it is current, active, and on going. Paul is no longer once a blasphemer but the Chief of Blasphemy, and a leader of those who wreak havoc against the church with violence? Your teaching is shooting you right in the foot. 1 Timothy 1:13 is Paul saying that he was once a sinner, but he gained mercy for those sins because he did them all in ignorance and unbelief. I believe I asked you to explain what Paul meant by that?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Romans 7
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

It's a daily war of flesh vs. Spirit. You'll not find me ever stating that Paul was living actively in sin.

Again, Paul is speaking not about himself. Was Paul a infelix ego homo quis? Which in Latin means unhappy man? Did Paul just become happy when he was in front of Agrippa Acts 26:2? In Romans 7:11 the Apostle is directly speaking of Genesis 3:13. The apostle follows this thought throughout the rest of his discussion in Romans 7. DB, false doctrine causes question begging, instead of answering questions.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Nope. You're wrong.

But you just can't have it like that! Don't you see what your doctrine does? You beat the drum proclaiming that Paul was a wretched man. One who couldn't help himself, who states he was unable to be good, and pronounced himself to be the Chief of Blasphemy. A Chief of all who sin. So, when the 40,000 people of Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale want their old pastor to return to the pulpit they see their logic through the same teaching you hold.
If Paul was first of all who sin, then he would be forgiven instantly as much as a young boy with a broken yard stick. God is no respecter of persons? Correct? So, just as you doled out forgiveness without repentance to the yardstick breaking child, your soteriology should operate the same exact way? Your Porno Pastor doesn't even need to say he is sorry, he was already forgiven by Grace. Wasn't Bob Coy was breaking yardsticks all over his church? Wasn't he being a wretched man like Paul? A leader in sin like Paul? DB, seriously you need to get to the woodshed and figure out what you are teaching your people.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

You are teaching that Paul was saying that he was the first of all sinners?

YOU say I am teaching that---but I'm NOT. I simply quoted his statement. You'll not find me posting anywhere that Paul said he was first of all sinners. Again, misrepresenting what I say is a falsehood, proving that Christians sin after conversion. You keep telling lies about me.

Paul saying that he was wretched and a foremost among 100% of the sinners

Paul was a humble man. Do I teach that Paul was the worst sinner of all sinners? NO! But then again I don't believe Paul believed in "degrees of sinners". He taught "ALL have sinned" and thereby classifies us as equally guilty. I perceive that you totem pole sin, categorize sin, classify sin in degrees so that there are gross sinners, bad sinners, sinners, and people who make mistakes. An honest person of integrity owns their own weakness. That's all Paul is saying. He's being REAL. Legalism encourages people to live secret lives, keeping up appearances, maintaining image. Paul is humbly acknowledging his own shortcomings, of which we ALL have EB, including you.

Paul taught that we should treat each other better than ourselves. He sees others as better than him. So it's not unusual that he's saying he's the worst guy ever. It's not LITERAL!

You won't get it though. You're too busy congratulating yourself on how perfect you are.

You flip flop between two poles. One side of your mouth you claim the Christian grows, then out of the other the Christian fails. Bro, that is a straight up contradiction.

EB, CHRISTIANS DO BOTH!!!!! How hard is that to understand??? If human growth and development is analogous to spiritual growth and development, then it's SIMPLE---while we are growing and learning and maturing, we are also falling, and failing, and getting injured. It's not either/or---it's both!

In 1 Timothy 1:13 Paul points out that he was once a blasphemer, not the chief of blasphemy. You are trying to refute the words of Paul by saying that it wasn't ONCE, but it is current, active, and on going. Paul is no longer once a blasphemer but the Chief of Blasphemy, and a leader of those who wreak havoc against the church with violence? Your teaching is shooting you right in the foot. 1 Timothy 1:13 is Paul saying that he was once a sinner, but he gained mercy for those sins because he did them all in ignorance and unbelief. I believe I asked you to explain what Paul meant by that?

Why doesn't Paul "I WAS the chief of sinners" or "I ONCE WAS chief of sinners"? Why use present tense? And that doesn't mean he was saying "I'm still persecuting the church and blaspheming"!!! Shaking my head...

They are going to come out with a new Quickcrete variety called QUICKCRETE EB---extra thick and hard.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Of course you all want to couch that in the most extreme terms---that I preach that people can live anyway they want and it doesn't matter to God---or that people can remain swimming in a cesspool of debauchery and wantonness---or that people can't overcome or be victorious. It's not true.

Bro, a cognitive dissonance within religion is normal. It is found in eschatology, soteriology, all types of theology. OK, you don't teach that people can live anyway they want, or that people can remain swimming in a cesspool of sin filled debauchery, or that people can't overcome or be victorious? But wasn't it you who posted that you can't be perfect in THIS LIFE? Overcome sin in THIS LIFE? You did post that? Bro, people draw conclusions to what is written. They will also ask for clarifications, also ask for you to explain verses which it seems you contradict. Yet, you when flop around a thread never touching top side or bottom of what you are being asked then a conclusion can be drawn.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

But say on. It helps you champion the cause of holiness and righteousness that you so vigorously believe in (so do I but you don't want to believe that).

That's why it is called pyschological projection. You end up chasing your own tail. Constantly running away from a bad religious experience (or any bad experience) but always end up biting your own tail.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

If I err, I will err on the side of God's longsuffering and lovingkindness.

The NT is not an updated OT. Striving for goodness and perfection, holiness and sinlessness was a losing proposition in the OT. Jesus came to fulfill all that we couldn't so that we could walk by faith and love with peace and joy that we are clothed with HIS righteousness and that we are filled with HIS Holy Spirit. We can overcome and become more than conquerors because of what HE did. We walk by faith not by sight and we are empowered to live lives pleasing to Him.

DB, do you strive to love your children and your wife?

Cain didn't love what he was doing and therefore his WORKS were evil, and his brother loved what he was doing therefore his works were good. When you have a love for something the proper fruit is produced. I know people who have never set a foot in any Pentecostal church, or Pentecostal movement, Apostolic, or any holiness church. Yet, they held a standard of dress, didn't involve themselves in things which you feel you missed out on. I shared with the church family about the Bermuda shorts they loved it.

But people I have met all over the United States, who did certain things not because they were TOLD, but because that is what they believed.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

So go ahead and define me and what I believe how you want or in a way that helps you display your Apostolic chops. But I know who I am and whose I am.

Hey, you don't like Apostolics.

DB?

Does God hate Apostolics as much as you do?

Or do you hate us less?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Every day we fall short of the glory of God,

You can't even miss a day? Every day you fail, everyday you fall short. They tell you, they write long lengthy books on the subject. On how you can have an overcomers life, but always throw in the disclaimer that you will fail. Not just fail mind you, but fail every day. You can't even miss a day. Paul states in Romans 6:1-2 should we continue in Sin that Grace would increase? God forbid, For those of us who have died to sin, how shall we continue in it?

Romans 3:23 isn't instructions on the Christian life, no! Romans 3:22-24 is argument on the need for salvation for both groups.

This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. THERE IS NO DISTINCTION, for all (Judean and Roman) have SINNED and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

but it's okay, no need to sweat it, He sees my repentant heart, hears my honest confession,

Roman Catholic, just without the rosary, priest, Hail Marys, Our Fathers, and confession booth? Bro, who the son sets free is free in deed.

Jesus doesn't have to keep going back to the cross over and over again.
That's why the Catholics placed Him back on the Cross in their sanctuaries.
They only see Him dying, instead of resurrecting! He has Risen! The Cross is about victory not death, or defeat.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

and it's accounted to me as righteousness because my faith isn't in my ability to bat 1.000, it's in that Jesus batted 1.000 and He graciously imputed that righteousness to me by faith.

But you know where that leads?

You can NEVER bat a thousand, never but Jesus is batting for you. He plays the game with your uniform on. He plays the entire season blasting balls right out of the park with your name on them. Yet, you don't play, you sit on the bench. If you do get to play a season and strike out He just throws on your uniform to start winning for you again? Bro, 1 Corinthians 3:16, John 14:16-17 speaks of Christ in you the Hope of Glory Colossians 1:27. In Romans 8:36-37 it quotes the Psalmist's lament of suffering found in Psalm 44:22, but adds No! In all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us!

More than conquerors that is what the apostle calls the saints. He doesn't tell them that they will be less than conquerors because they will always fail to hit the mark?

[Esaias]

JD, do you believe God desires His children to have victory over sin? Does God want His children to not sin?

[houston]

Originally Posted by Esaias

JD, do you believe God desires His children to have victory over sin? Does God want His children to not sin?

Yes, but you didn't ask me.



DB, anything more than a paragraph or 2 I skip... Don't have the attention span for that.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by houston

Yes, but you didn't ask me.



DB, anything more than a paragraph or 2 I skip... Don't have the attention span for that.

That's why I try to keep it to sections.