Rock Hudson Repented Before His Death

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by houston

What a mess. To be saved in your sins and not from them.

I come across that attitude all the time amongst the reformed brethren.
"I am the scum of the earth worthy of hellfire and damnation. Now let me tell you the good news."

Might be due to some quirk of the reformed doctrine...

[houston]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Might be due to some quirk of the reformed doctrine...

Some believe that they will always sin. Not enough mortification and vivification going on.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by houston

What a mess. To be saved in your sins and not from them.

I come across that attitude all the time amongst the reformed brethren.
"I am the scum of the earth worthy of hellfire and damnation. Now let me tell you the good news."

Sanctification is the process of salvation. We are an unfinished work. In one sense my children are perfect---I wouldn't want them to be anything other than what they are---yet there are lots of things I hope and expect will change and develop and mature in them.

My eleven-year-old son is a great kid, I love him dearly, would lay my life down for him---he's perfect in my eyes, yet this morning he admitted to me that he didn't finish his homework after I asked him last night did he have any. He either lied to me or just was irresponsible and negligent. Either way his humanity surfaced his morning. There's a consequence for what he did---won't get it done in time (he was feverishly trying to finish at the breakfast table), a bad grade for getting it done too quickly and being sloppy with his answers, and certainly being grounded from video games today.

I didn't kick him out of the house, disown him, go to the courthouse to have his name changed so that he no longer bears my family name. I dropped him off at his bus stop, we prayed before he got out of the car, and I told him I loved him.

My Heavenly Father is infinitely a much better father than me. He loves me as His son, I bear His name. In one sense He loves me as I am, yet His sanctifying work in me is helping me to grow and mature as I walk with Him. After all of these years I'm still growing, still learning, still maturing.

My 16-year-old daughter has grown so much. It's hard to believe she's driving now! But she's a teenager, and there is a lot of growing up to do. In one sense I don't want her to be anybody else but her! Yet I sure hope some things change in her the next couple of years. If those things don't change, we are going to have some issues. In fact we already do---but I would never think of kicking her to the curb and disowning her.

My 22-year-old son is a man now. Married, member of the Air Force, traveled the world, smarter, wiser, more mature. He's not a father yet but will be someday I'm sure. He is the son anyone could ever wish for. Yet on Skype the other day he admitted to me some of his faults. I didn't respond by saying---"I'm ashamed to be your father! Don't ever talk to me again!"

We are saved and sanctified. God is working in us, changing us, maturing us, growing us. Why does James say "confess your faults one to another"? Christians have faults, weaknesses, shortcomings, failures, mistakes, sins. We get saved and are regenerated being born of the Spirit. But the outer man remains, the carnal man still exists. We aren't automatically transformed into the stature of Jesus. It begins. Peter says "add to" your faith, he lists several steps of maturity as we add to our faith.

Mature adults still can slip and fall, they just don't fall as much as a toddler. I nearly fell the other day when I stood up with a leg that had gone to sleep. Stumbling, falling, tripping, missteps can happen to anyone at any age. If a grown adult falls a lot, he needs to seek help, there is something seriously wrong. But to act like Christians, even mature Christians don't sin is silly.

Of course you all want to couch that in the most extreme terms---that I preach that people can live anyway they want and it doesn't matter to God---or that people can remain swimming in a cesspool of debauchery and wantonness---or that people can't overcome or be victorious. It's not true. But say on. It helps you champion the cause of holiness and righteousness that you so vigorously believe in (so do I but you don't want to believe that).

If I err, I will err on the side of God's longsuffering and lovingkindness.

The NT is not an updated OT. Striving for goodness and perfection, holiness and sinlessness was a losing proposition in the OT. Jesus came to fulfill all that we couldn't so that we could walk by faith and love with peace and joy that we are clothed with HIS righteousness and that we are filled with HIS Holy Spirit. We can overcome and become more than conquerors because of what HE did. We walk by faith not by sight and we are empowered to live lives pleasing to Him.

Every day we fall short of the glory of God, but it's okay, no need to sweat it, He sees my repentant heart, hears my honest confession, and it's accounted to me as righteousness because my faith isn't in my ability to bat 1.000, it's in that Jesus batted 1.000 and He graciously imputed that righteousness to me by faith.

So go ahead and define me and what I believe how you want or in a way that helps you display your Apostolic chops. But I know who I am and whose I am.

[Esaias]

JD, do you believe God desires His children to have victory over sin? Does God want His children to not sin?

[houston]

Originally Posted by Esaias

JD, do you believe God desires His children to have victory over sin? Does God want His children to not sin?

Yes, but you didn't ask me.



DB, anything more than a paragraph or 2 I skip... Don't have the attention span for that.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Sanctification is the process of salvation. We are an unfinished work. In one sense my children are perfect---I wouldn't want them to be anything other than what they are---yet there are lots of things I hope and expect will change and develop and mature in them.

My eleven-year-old son is a great kid, I love him dearly, would lay my life down for him---he's perfect in my eyes, yet this morning he admitted to me that he didn't finish his homework after I asked him last night did he have any. He either lied to me or just was irresponsible and negligent. Either way his humanity surfaced his morning. There's a consequence for what he did---won't get it done in time (he was feverishly trying to finish at the breakfast table), a bad grade for getting it done too quickly and being sloppy with his answers, and certainly being grounded from video games today.

I didn't kick him out of the house, disown him, go to the courthouse to have his name changed so that he no longer bears my family name. I dropped him off at his bus stop, we prayed before he got out of the car, and I told him I loved him.

My Heavenly Father is infinitely a much better father than me. He loves me as His son, I bear His name. In one sense He loves me as I am, yet His sanctifying work in me is helping me to grow and mature as I walk with Him. After all of these years I'm still growing, still learning, still maturing.

My 16-year-old daughter has grown so much. It's hard to believe she's driving now! But she's a teenager, and there is a lot of growing up to do. In one sense I don't want her to be anybody else but her! Yet I sure hope some things change in her the next couple of years. If those things don't change, we are going to have some issues. In fact we already do---but I would never think of kicking her to the curb and disowning her.

My 22-year-old son is a man now. Married, member of the Air Force, traveled the world, smarter, wiser, more mature. He's not a father yet but will be someday I'm sure. He is the son anyone could ever wish for. Yet on Skype the other day he admitted to me some of his faults. I didn't respond by saying---"I'm ashamed to be your father! Don't ever talk to me again!"

We are saved and sanctified. God is working in us, changing us, maturing us, growing us. Why does James say "confess your faults one to another"? Christians have faults, weaknesses, shortcomings, failures, mistakes, sins. We get saved and are regenerated being born of the Spirit. But the outer man remains, the carnal man still exists. We aren't automatically transformed into the stature of Jesus. It begins. Peter says "add to" your faith, he lists several steps of maturity as we add to our faith.

Mature adults still can slip and fall, they just don't fall as much as a toddler. I nearly fell the other day when I stood up with a leg that had gone to sleep. Stumbling, falling, tripping, missteps can happen to anyone at any age. If a grown adult falls a lot, he needs to seek help, there is something seriously wrong. But to act like Christians, even mature Christians don't sin is silly.

Of course you all want to couch that in the most extreme terms---that I preach that people can live anyway they want and it doesn't matter to God---or that people can remain swimming in a cesspool of debauchery and wantonness---or that people can't overcome or be victorious. It's not true. But say on. It helps you champion the cause of holiness and righteousness that you so vigorously believe in (so do I but you don't want to believe that).

If I err, I will err on the side of God's longsuffering and lovingkindness.

The NT is not an updated OT. Striving for goodness and perfection, holiness and sinlessness was a losing proposition in the OT. Jesus came to fulfill all that we couldn't so that we could walk by faith and love with peace and joy that we are clothed with HIS righteousness and that we are filled with HIS Holy Spirit. We can overcome and become more than conquerors because of what HE did. We walk by faith not by sight and we are empowered to live lives pleasing to Him.

Every day we fall short of the glory of God, but it's okay, no need to sweat it, He sees my repentant heart, hears my honest confession, and it's accounted to me as righteousness because my faith isn't in my ability to bat 1.000, it's in that Jesus batted 1.000 and He graciously imputed that righteousness to me by faith.

So go ahead and define me and what I believe how you want or in a way that helps you display your Apostolic chops. But I know who I am and whose I am.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Explain to me what Paul meant when he called himself chief of sinners.

I did, at least twice. Yet, just like someone who is in a cult, your cognitive dissonance will not allow you to focus on something contrary to your belief system. First, before, principal, most important. Contracted superlative of pro; foremost. Protos the Greek word translated as Chief indicates first in order. You are saying that the Apostle is telling his readers that he is either the worst of the worst currently in his own lifetime. Or he is saying that he is even far more a sinner than Adam. Meaning the use of protos would be first in order of all who sin. Do you see the problem with what you are teaching? You are teaching that Paul was saying that he was the first of all sinners? But in Romans 6:1 Paul says shall we continue sinning so that grace may increase? Within your teaching this verse is a contradiction to Paul saying that he was wretched and a foremost among 100% of the sinners.Hence the reason why I continue to call what you believe a Bipolar form of Christendom.
You believe that you are currently worthless, wretched, and have capabilities within you to blow out at any given second. Therefore you don't trust a true conversion in anyone else. I know I know, you are going to say that I misrepresent you, but I'm just drawing conclusions from all that you have posted. You flip flop between two poles. One side of your mouth you claim the Christian grows, then out of the other the Christian fails. Bro, that is a straight up contradiction. In 1 Timothy 1:13 Paul points out that he was once a blasphemer, not the chief of blasphemy. You are trying to refute the words of Paul by saying that it wasn't ONCE, but it is current, active, and on going. Paul is no longer once a blasphemer but the Chief of Blasphemy, and a leader of those who wreak havoc against the church with violence? Your teaching is shooting you right in the foot. 1 Timothy 1:13 is Paul saying that he was once a sinner, but he gained mercy for those sins because he did them all in ignorance and unbelief. I believe I asked you to explain what Paul meant by that?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Romans 7
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

It's a daily war of flesh vs. Spirit. You'll not find me ever stating that Paul was living actively in sin.

Again, Paul is speaking not about himself. Was Paul a infelix ego homo quis? Which in Latin means unhappy man? Did Paul just become happy when he was in front of Agrippa Acts 26:2? In Romans 7:11 the Apostle is directly speaking of Genesis 3:13. The apostle follows this thought throughout the rest of his discussion in Romans 7. DB, false doctrine causes question begging, instead of answering questions.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Nope. You're wrong.

But you just can't have it like that! Don't you see what your doctrine does? You beat the drum proclaiming that Paul was a wretched man. One who couldn't help himself, who states he was unable to be good, and pronounced himself to be the Chief of Blasphemy. A Chief of all who sin. So, when the 40,000 people of Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale want their old pastor to return to the pulpit they see their logic through the same teaching you hold.
If Paul was first of all who sin, then he would be forgiven instantly as much as a young boy with a broken yard stick. God is no respecter of persons? Correct? So, just as you doled out forgiveness without repentance to the yardstick breaking child, your soteriology should operate the same exact way? Your Porno Pastor doesn't even need to say he is sorry, he was already forgiven by Grace. Wasn't Bob Coy was breaking yardsticks all over his church? Wasn't he being a wretched man like Paul? A leader in sin like Paul? DB, seriously you need to get to the woodshed and figure out what you are teaching your people.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

"They"? Who are the "they"? Are they like the "they" of the "they say"? Like "they say if you wear a ball cap too much you'll go bald." This anonymous group of people that answer surveys and polls and "they" feed us statistics to cite?

The "they" are the people I deal with around my city and counties of Broward and Dade.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

If the Gospel of Grace is a dog and pony show

No, the Gospel is power to overcome, so let's not confuse the Gospel which is contained in the Bible with the insanity you teach.

Struggling with sin in your gospel is just a given, not something one can escape.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

---what is the Apostolic movement?

Much better since you left?

Originally Posted by deacon blues

If "they" are so sick of hearing about God's love, and grace, and mercy, and compassion

No, they aren't sick of that, they are sick of the garbage being passed off as God's love, and grace, and mercy, and compassion.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

---why aren't they just flocking to the chosen few who have "the truth"?

Some people act like you, but weren't raised in the UPC, but were raised in Dr D J Kennedy's Corral Ridge Presbyterian, Independent Baptist, Shepherding Movement, Calvary Chapel, First Baptist, and are maybe angrier than you? Look! You actually believe that what you have is the "truth?" Bro, they don't believe that, because they were raised in the Truth. So, when you or I come along chirping truth, truth, truth. Their eyes roll white. Yet, you have the Brand X which Slices, Dices, and makes Julienne Fries. You have Gospel-O-Matic one size fits all complete with Ginsu Christ. What is the biggest movement in American prison system? It is the Wretched man, Chief Sinner doctrine. Where you can break all the yardsticks and still get a pass. Right on DB!

Originally Posted by deacon blues

The implication is that "they" are looking for what YOU have and preach EB! So how is that going? Do you take time to get off of the Internet long enough to win the "they" that are soooo sick of hearing about that super syrupy sweet grace message for "the truth" you possess???

I'm not telling people to continue in Sin that Grace may abound.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Dog and pony show indeed...

Yep, what you are teaching is a circus, a carnival, a traveling troupe of acrobats storytellers, dancers, singers, jugglers, sideshow freaks, and lion-tamers.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I've seen the show. Watched the performances at church from the pulpit to the pew. Everybody playing the game of "we are the only ones going to heaven!"

Bro, but you rode the pendulum clear to the other side. Instead of finding balance you fell off the high wire into mythos. Your just playing the game of "we are going to heaven no matter what we do!" I know, I know, again you will say that is a misrepresentation, but bro, you believe and teach that Paul was the chief of all who sin. If that is what he is conveying then we are saved in sin, stay always in sin, can get out of sin, but one day in heaven we will?

Originally Posted by deacon blues

congratulating one another for how super spiritual and how super special we were. Camp meetings were worse. Conferences, off the charts.

Bro, you need to move forward with your life. Is this all therapy for you? Being on this forum? Waiting for opportunities to find some young Apostolic or Apostolic neophyte to provide them the soothing balm. To tell them how you had such a horrible time in the Apostolic movement? How the UPCI is a bad and what you believe is GOOD. Dude, it looks like you are all tangled up in the Tar-Baby.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Yeah, we are messed up. Every one of us.

Yes, and you are proud of it. You proclaim that you don't understand why God even deals with you. Telling you your messed up should be a pat on the back. Not a dig. You doctrine loves sackcloth, loves to parade around being ever so humble. Not that true humility isn't powerful, only that when it is used as a pulpit prop it is sickening.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

You know me so well.

No, I don't know you, I just know what I read from you.
You don't know me, but only know what you read from me.
But somehow your opinions concerning myself hold more weight?
DB, contemplate this on the tree of woe.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I know you have heard my preaching and are able to tell that!

I read what you post, I come to conclusions from what you are saying in your posts. If you type out in a post that you cannot fathom why God even deals with you and that you constantly doubt yourself. It would be a close hunch to say that you would also tell your congregation the same thing. This isn't rocket science.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by houston

Yes, but you didn't ask me.



DB, anything more than a paragraph or 2 I skip... Don't have the attention span for that.

That's why I try to keep it to sections.