Which bible/bibles gets 1 Timothy 3:16 correct?

[peter83]

Originally Posted by mfblume

This implies use of a logical fallacy. The promotion of the "two oldest" implies they're the most accurate, since they're closer to the date the texts were first written. Just because something is older does not mean it's more accurate. Consider denominations and ask yourself if Catholicism is most accurate because its oldest.

These two oldest are the Codex Vaticanus and the Codex Sinaiticus. The Vaticanus was found on a shelf in the Vatican after Catholics plundered the world, and it's not known where the codex was even found. The Sinaiticus was found in a monastery on Mt Sinai used for starting fires!

I am 100% with you man! (read the entire post) i also prefair the Majority text ! i think this is the original.
Vaticanus and Sinaiticus also disagree and contradicte one the other in many many places but today translators says "the older the better"

[Light]

No where does the word godliness refers to the God head. Both trinity and oneness people try to make Jesus a God using 1Ti 3:16

1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1Ti 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

1Ti 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

1Ti 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Q
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness ,

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Light

No where does the word godliness refers to the God head. Both trinity and oneness people try to make Jesus a God using 1Ti 3:16

Godliness is the issue but it still proves Jesus is God. It is actually showing even God in the flesh had to live a godly life by reliance on the Spirit and not the flesh, since this is a lesson to us on how this grand mystery of being godly really works. If God in flesh had to rely on Spirit to be justified, how much more do we?

[YounginHope]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Godliness is the issue but it still proves Jesus is God. It is actually showing even God in the flesh had to live a godly life by reliance on the Spirit and not the flesh, since this is a lesson to us on how this grand mystery of being godly really works. If God in flesh had to rely on Spirit to be justified, how much more do we?

Amen. I think that very thought often.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Light

No where does the word godliness refers to the God head. Both trinity and oneness people try to make Jesus a God using 1Ti 3:16

1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1Ti 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

1Ti 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

1Ti 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Q
2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness ,

1Ti 3:16 καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶ τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον· Θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί, ἐδικαιώθη ἐν Πνεύματι, ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις, ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν, ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ, ἀνελήμφθη ἐν δόξῃ.

The word translated "godliness" is eusebias.

Barnes: Of godliness - The word “godliness” means, properly, piety, reverence, or religiousness. It is used here, however, for the gospel scheme, to wit, that which the apostle proceeds to state. This “mystery,” which had “been hidden from ages and from generations, and which was now manifest” Col_1:26, was the great doctrine on which depended “religion” everywhere, or was that which constituted the Christian scheme.

Roberson: The mystery of godliness (to tēs eusebeias mustērion). See 1Ti_3:9 “the mystery of the faith,” and 1Ti_2:2 for eusebeia. Here the phrase explains “a pillar and stay of the truth” (1Ti_3:15). See in particular 1Co_1:27. “The revealed secret of true religion, the mystery of Christianity, the Person of Christ” (Lock).

Vincent: The mystery of godliness (τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον)
(a) The connection of thought is with the truth (1Ti_3:15), and the words mystery of godliness are a paraphrase of that word. The church is the pillar and stay of the truth, and the truth constitutes the mystery of godliness. (b) The contents of this truth or mystery is Christ, revealed in the gospel as the Savior from ungodliness, the norm and inspiration of godliness, the divine life in man, causing him to live unto God as Christ did and does (Rom_6:10). See 1Ti_1:15; 1Ti_2:5; Col_1:26, Col_1:27. According to the Fourth Gospel, Christ is himself the truth (Joh_14:6). The mystery of godliness is the substance of piety = mystery of the faith (1Ti_3:9). (c) The truth is called a mystery because it was, historically, hidden, until revealed in the person and work of Christ; also because it is concealed from human wisdom, and apprehended only by faith in the revelation of God through Christ. (d) The genitive, of godliness, is possessive. The mystery of godliness is the truth which pertains or belongs to godliness. It is not the property of worldly wisdom. Great (μέγα) means important, weighty, as Eph_5:32.

end of quotes.

So then, the 'mystery of godliness' is a term that means 'the hidden secret of the true religion', or the hidden secret of piety. This is born out by the Reina Valera translation, "Y sin cotradicción, grande es el misterio de la piedad:" where eusebius is translated as piedad, or piety.

Strong's: From G2152; piety; specifically the gospel scheme: - godliness, holiness.

The Latin Vulgate is thus: et manifeste magnum est pietatis sacramentum.

So again, the word "godliness" does NOT mean 'right and moral living' in the sense of ethics, but rather means the right and proper relationship between man and God, and thus is synonymous with 'true religion'.

So the apostle is saying that there is no controversy or argument about the fact that the 'mystery' or core doctrine of the true faith is 'God was manifest in the flesh...' etc.

This not only establishes the deity of Christ, but refutes trinitarianism, which claims the trinity is the core doctrine or mystery of the true faith, and any other -ism which denies the deity of Christ. Without the deity of Christ, there is no eusebius, or true religion or worship of God.

[Scott Pitta]

I am tired, and I cannot write Greek on my computer, but I will take a swing at it.

In early Greek manuscripts of the NT, some manuscripts read "he" and other manuscripts read "God". They are evenly split between the manuscripts.

For what it is worth, the earliest manuscripts read "he" and not "God". If I recall, the variation entered the textual tradition around the 5th or 6th century.

It is not a theological issue. It is a textual criticism issue.

The history of this textual problem is covered in the Textual Commentary of the NT, by Metzger.

[rdp]

*Burgon's work still stands today in support of the reading "God" in this text:

http://www.archive.org/stream/revisi...ge/n7/mode/2up

*See here also for a synopsis:

http://www.berenddeboer.net/article/1_timothy_3_16.html

[Scott Pitta]

The issue for me is rather simple.

"He" is spelled almost exactly the same as "God" in 1 Tim. 3:16. The difference is seen in comparing an omicron with a theta.

Soem scribe mistook "os" for "ths" and pesto, the tradition for a different textual variant is formed.

It is a lot easier to show on a piece of paper. These computers have their limitations

It is a simple spelling error.

[Praxeas]

Never heard anyone argue godliness means godhead

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Scott Pitta

The issue for me is rather simple.

"He" is spelled almost exactly the same as "God" in 1 Tim. 3:16. The difference is seen in comparing an omicron with a theta.

Soem scribe mistook "os" for "ths" and pesto, the tradition for a different textual variant is formed.

It is a lot easier to show on a piece of paper. These computers have their limitations

It is a simple spelling error.

*Actually, Burgon argues the polar opposite. A scribe could have just as easily mistook the Θ for an Ο in the nomina sacra since only a feint line through the Ο makes the difference.

*The ECF (if you accept them as ECF) referred to this text as Θεός, as does Codex A according to the earliest custodians who actually handled the MS (cf. Ignatius, Burgon, et al. in the link above).

*Again, Burgon's monumental work (see above) is still considered by many text-critics to be a defining work on this variant (White even argues in favor of the reading Θεός in his tome The KJVO Controversy based on Burgon's volume).