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Old 02-03-2017, 06:21 PM
Jito463 Jito463 is offline
J.esus i.s t.he o.ne God (463)


 
Join Date: May 2013
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Re: Apostolic Ministers with Guts to Preach 1-Step

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Originally Posted by Jason B View Post
Again, you jump over the substance and introduce red herrings. I'll respond to these 3 then reintroduce the previous thought:

1)Simply incorrect, there were accounts of people who spoke in tongues, the Montanists are the most prolific of such groups, Augustine seems to refer to it, numerous mystics in the Middle Ages claimed to or a similar experience, some reports say this happened in the Weslyan Revivals, the first Great Awakening in America, the Cane Ridge Revival, and so on. There are scattered claims of tongues speaking throughout church history, along with some bizarre claims of other things. But throughough church history until the 20th century, the people who spoke in tongues did not baptize in Jesus name, and with very rare exceptions they were all trinitarian. So according to your view they were all lost, so why does that matter? This is my point, your view is so inconsistent its only logical conclusion is to condemn to hell essentially any Christian anywhere from the time of the apostle John until the time of RE McCallister at Arroyo Seco in 1913.

2)Not at all. In fact I have serious doubts about one of the great heros of the Reformation, John Calvin. I don't think theres any question there will be people who claimed to be Christians who go to hell. There's no doubt there are false converts, and there's a real question about the way oneness pentecostals use Matthew 7:21-23. OPs often use it toward all these Christians in history who weren't like them. I think the better application is the many people of the church who persecuted other believers, and the many charlatins of all ages, rampant in our age. To name names, The Copelands, Dollars,Rob Bell's, Steven Furticks, Todd Bentley's, Bill Johnsons of the world. People who are simply not Christian. I do not believe this verse is speaking of say, Hudson Taylor, who goes and gives his life for the people of China, or William Tyndale who so believes in getting the Word of God to people in their own language so that he is burned alive at the stake. Or to the anabaptists who wanted to so identify with Christ by their own believers baptism, despite the fact they were baptized as babies, that they were ruthlessly tortured and taken out to rivers and drowned to death. I don't think it applies to John Newton who lived his life in regret over his sinful days, authoring the beloved hymn Amazing Grace. I think to apply Matthew 7:21-23 to such people as these simply because they didn't have the correct words spoken over them at baptism and they didn't speak in esctatic language that no one understands, is a gross misapplication of te scripture.

Beyond that, I honestly think there will be oneness people who will be caught up in that judgment. People who are hateful, judgemental, and callous in the name of being "uncompromising" and "standing for the old paths". I think we should allow Matthew 7:21-23 as a warning to us all, rather than just thinking it applies to them, over there, who aren't like us.

3)Again, not at all, the scripture is clear God uses unbelievers all the time. Balaams donkey, Pharoh, Cyrus, Nebuchadnezzar, Annas, Caiphas, even Judas Iscariot and Demas. I think God is using Donald Trump to some degree, and I don't believe Trump has a regenerate bone in his body. I guess it depends on your view of the sovereignty and providence of God as to how much he uses certain people. I'd argue that God is essentially using whom He wills to accomplish His purposes.
Okay, after finally reading through your whole post, I'm a little confused. If you agree with me about the points I brought up, then what's the issue? If you agree that there were people who spoke in tongues through the ages, if you agree that just because people claim to be part of the body of Christ, that it doesn't necessarily make it so and if you agree with me that unsaved people can be used of God and still be unsaved, I'm not sure what your remaining argument is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason B View Post
Now then, a simple question, in your opinion, knowing that all of the men I listed above were not baptized in Jesus name and did not speak in tongues, do you believe all of them to be lost, and as such burning in hell this very moment? Huss, Wesley, Luther, Tyndale, Wycliffe, Edwards, Ravenhill, Wilkerson, etc. A simple question.
You say these names as if their historical significance should automatically entitle them to salvation. If they were not saved according to the Apostles' doctrine, then they are lost. It's as simple as that. I'm not going to tell you who is and is not in hell, because I didn't know a single one of them.

All I can tell you is what the Bible teaches. And if someone does not do as God's Word instructs, then they are lost.
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Sometimes hidden dangers spring on us suddenly. Those are out of our control. But when one can see the danger, and then refuses to arrest , all in the name of "God is in control", they are forfeiting God given, preventive opportunities.
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