Help! Tormented dreams

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Those are fair questions.

There are a number of reasons involved. In deliverance ministry, the casing out of devils is a part of a witness and testimony to Christ's power, just as it was in the NT. This actually builds faith in Christ, offers believers victory, joy, and confirms the Bible.

Also, the deliverance minister seeks to confirm that he or she isn't being lied to, that the individual in question isn't simply having emotional problems, or isn't just of a fearful disposition. Also the deliverance minister desires to permanently resolve the issue without a doubt.

So, confirmation is seen as a valuable factor. Of course confirmation isn't always possible, leaving only discernment, or good old fashioned faith. All of us have seen the dab of oil, a prayer, and some assurance. Many times that works. But many times individuals continue to struggle under demonic oppression. Deliverance ministry seeks to permanently resolve the problem and bring sure deliverance. True deliverance ministry is not all about spirits, it's about setting captives free and changing lives through the demonstrated power and authority of Jesus.

The time it takes to confirm a spirits presence doesn't mean that Jesus isn't present. Nor does it mean that the deliverance minister isn't filled with the Holy Spirit. It simply means that the atmosphere isn't ripe to strike a chord with the demon. Jesus never had this problem, He was God Himself in flesh. We are human. Once the atmosphere is filled with faith, expectancy, and worship, the presence of God is at the level necessary to provoke the evil spirit. Even our church services can be bogged down, and need pushed by the worship leader to the place wherein the atmosphere is ripe to manifest the anointing. So, the notion is nothing new. The proper level of faith, focus, and worship is what must be attained. Pray through until the power and anointing is released by the move of the Holy Spirit.

The same question can be asked regarding healing. Jesus healed with 100% success. Why aren't those called to pray for the sick experiencing the same success?

Jesus was God. We are not.

When Jesus sent out the disciples two by two, He gave them power to do just as He was doing. They cast out evil spirits and were rejoicing over it, until Jesus set them straight. They weren't God, so how did they do exactly as Jesus did, but today, Christ's disciples have to do something different?

Strike the right chord with an evil spirit? What does that mean? The devil is going to hunker down until we can drive it crazy enough to get off the couch and come shake his fist at us?

And what is all this talk about atmosphere? Does the natural environment which surrounds us have to be spiritualized before God is either able or willing to do something?

Atmosphere is not faith. Faith says "and the train of His robe filled the temple". Faith says "we are the temple of the Holy Spirit of God", therefore, the train of God's robe fills us, and therefore the "atmosphere", whatever that means, is meaningless, because it's already filled to the max with an omnipresent God, who is jealous for us, and dances and sings over us as His special treasure and peculiar people.

Prophets of Baal and other pagans who consort with demons need to work themselves into a convulsed state to make their gods dance. Our God commands and we speak, and IT IS DONE.

This idea that the presence of God is in some far off intangible place when we are one spirit with the Lord and God the Father is in us all, is plainly not the revealed reality of the Holy Scriptures. Remember Elijah's mocking, that Baal was on some distant voyage or laying down for a nap? That's how too many believers treat our Lord God, like He needs to be wrested from a siesta in some far off heavenly hacienda.

The Hope of Glory is in us, literally! So, where is the presence of the LORD God of Elijah dwelling? Inside of you, in your heart, by faith and Holy Spirit immersion. Trying to summon It from some other place like It isn't already present is an insult to the Lord.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

When Jesus sent out the disciples two by two, He gave them power to do just as He was doing. They cast out evil spirits and were rejoicing over it, until Jesus set them straight. They weren't God, so how did they do exactly as Jesus did, but today, Christ's disciples have to do something different?

They walked with Him. Sat at his feet and heard him teach. They witnessed first hand the works he worked. I assure you, their faith was far greater than most of ours. Now, can we attain that level of faith? Most certainly, but it isn't the same as actually walking with Him in person. Anyone who would deny that isn't really thinking about the impact of being in His physical presence would actually have.

Strike the right chord with an evil spirit? What does that mean? The devil is going to hunker down until we can drive it crazy enough to get off the couch and come shake his fist at us?

Unclean spirits don't want to be discovered. They don't want to demonstrate evidence of their very existence. That would point men to Christ. They want to remain hidden and see our unbelieving society continue to medicate the demonized. So yes, they dig in and seek to remain hidden for as long as possible. So, yes, it can take a little effort to get them stirred up enough to show themselves.

And what is all this talk about atmosphere? Does the natural environment which surrounds us have to be spiritualized before God is either able or willing to do something?

Please don't tell me that you've been in Pentecost all these years and you don't understand what it means to create an atmosphere of praise and worship wherein the spirit of heaviness is lifted and the Spirit of God flows freely and demons are forced into submission. Everyone one of us on this forum knows what this means.

Atmosphere is not faith. Faith says "and the train of His robe filled the temple". Faith says "we are the temple of the Holy Spirit of God", therefore, the train of God's robe fills us, and therefore the "atmosphere", whatever that means, is meaningless, because it's already filled to the max with an omnipresent God, who is jealous for us, and dances and sings over us as His special treasure and peculiar people.

You're playing dumb now. You know what it means to set an atmosphere of worship, praise, and victory. God abides in the praises of His people. When the praises go up, the power, glory, and anointing come down.

Do you even Apostolic church bro?

Prophets of Baal and other pagans who consort with demons need to work themselves into a convulsed state to make their gods dance. Our God commands and we speak, and IT IS DONE.

Always speaking in the superlative... leaving no room variance of circumstance, for additional knowledge, understanding, revelation, or experience other than your own. I find that sad. This means that you've learned all you can learn. You have it all figured out and it's all set in stone in your mind. There is nothing more you can learn with the perspective you hold. You're not even asking the proper questions to either validate your position or to grow from it. Dear brother, let me give you an example that proves to be an exception to your rule...

Did you know there was one occasion in which Jesus Himself commanded an evil spirit to be gone and... it DIDN'T leave immediately? Pay close attention to the text....

Mark 5:2-8
2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.

Now, in most recorded instances wherein Jesus commands an evil spirit to leave, it leaves no questions asked. But not here. The spirit is still present in the man in verse 9...

Mark 5:9
9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

When the spirit didn't depart, Jesus asked its name. I know why. Do you know why?

(*Please note: Any time Jesus asks a question, he is asking it for our benefit, not his own.)

This idea that the presence of God is in some far off intangible place when we are one spirit with the Lord and God the Father is in us all, is plainly not the revealed reality of the Holy Scriptures. Remember Elijah's mocking, that Baal was on some distant voyage or laying down for a nap? That's how too many believers treat our Lord God, like He needs to be wrested from a siesta in some far off heavenly hacienda.

Again, who said anything about "the presence of God is in some far off intangible place"???

You just created a straw man and beat it up. LOL

The Hope of Glory is in us, literally! So, where is the presence of the LORD God of Elijah dwelling? Inside of you, in your heart, by faith and Holy Spirit immersion. Trying to summon It from some other place like It isn't already present is an insult to the Lord.

Yes, it is in us. We agree. However, we are body, soul, and spirit. Our union with Him is in our spirits. The anointing and power flows more readily through us from the indwelling Spirit when our flesh is submitted and our minds are focused, fixed on Him. It doesn't flow when the flesh is in control and the mind is divided on various concerns. We have to get our flesh into submission, that can involve things like raising our hands in praise and worship, clapping, or kneeling in prayer...even when we're tired or self-willed and not wanting to. It means laying aside the cares of the day, our worries about the problems we face, and focusing on the LORD. Then is our entire being ready for the power and anointing to flow through us.

You're writing as though you don't know these things.

[votivesoul]

Aquila, on page 7, post #69, you wrote:

The knowledge regarding evil spirits that people have is often based on their study of the Bible, their study of other books and materials, and personal experience...

What other books and materials would one study to gain knowledge of evil spirits, if not exclusively the Bible?

How can a person's experience teach them things about evil spirits that the Bible doesn't teach?

Then, in the same post, a bit later you wrote:

Now, what I wrote about above is regarding knowledge and study. However, when we deal with the discerning spirits through the Holy Ghost, all of that goes out the window...

How can a charismata of the Holy Spirit, like discerning of spirits, take the knowledge and understanding one gleans from studying the Bible and throw it out the window?

Again, same post, later:

The Holy Spirit generally doesn't set us down and impart knowledge on the finer details of evil spirits...And, as I said before, this means we should expect a broad range of perspectives and understandings in this area...

So then, what is the source of knowledge regarding evil spirits you claim can be had by studying other books and materials? How is it that the Spirit of Truth won't lead us into all truth in this matter, such that we have to go outside of the Spirit of Truth, that is, the Holy Spirit, to gain understanding?

How does a broad range of perspectives and understandings in this area not lead to subjective, un-trustworthy, extra-Biblical revelations?

If the Holy Scriptures are so limited and the Holy Spirit of Truth isn't doing this for us, then wouldn't it follow that the perspectives and understandings of this area would be narrow, not broad?

Next, from the same post:

As for discerning angels. It does happen. It isn't as common...

Why not? Are there more evil spirits than there are angels, even though the author of Hebrews claims that the angels are innumerable (See Hebrews 12:22)? Are these angels not given to us as the heirs of salvation, per the same author's words early on in the epistle (Hebrews 1:14)?

How then is it that evil spirits are all around us, afflicting and over-powering God's people, constantly manifesting themselves, even to the point of giving off horrendous odors, and yet, angels barely ever do so? Is there nothing wrong in this, in your line of thinking?

Finally, same post, you wrote:

Why are we so troubled by anyone who feels called to a ministry doing one of the very things Jesus said we'd be known for?

First, no one here is troubled by anything Jesus said in the end of Mark 16. What's troubling is the manner in which some undertake to fulfill that portion of the Gospels.

Secondly, on page 8, post #74, you wrote:

There has to be a healthy balance...

But in page 7, from post #69, you showed how Jesus listed seven different things the New Covenant church ought to be doing or be apart of. So, wouldn't the correct balance regarding evil spirits be that this part of New Covenant ministry is merely a seventh of the overall picture Jesus gave to us from Mark 16? So how is it all these evil spirits have so much sway and power in the lives of God's saints, even to the point of suggesting Modest Mama is being haunted by one because of some dreams she has been having?

Is that not the height of irresponsibility, to take a forum member that you don't know personally, who doesn't post here often, whose walk with God you have not observed personally, who confesses to some frightening dreams, for you to then play into her fears and cause her to possibly think her problem is not only demonic, but that the reason it's possibly demonic is because of some lack or issue in her own life?

See (from page 7, post #70):

Just something in your original post struck me as indicating the possible presence of a spirit...

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

How then is it that evil spirits are all around us, afflicting and over-powering God's people, constantly manifesting themselves, even to the point of giving off horrendous odors, and yet, angels barely ever do so? Is there nothing wrong in this, in your line of thinking?

Angels (and saints) use deoderant, devils don't.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Aquila, on page 7, post #69, you wrote:
What other books and materials would one study to gain knowledge of evil spirits, if not exclusively the Bible?

I recommend that the Bible be anyone's primary source on the subject. But, I can't deny that there are some decent books out there that are informative and offer various perspectives on various aspects of spiritual warfare. Many times an issue is multifaceted and can be approached in various ways. It's really no different than any other topic in Christianity. There are many books by many authors that offer many different perspectives on grace, healing, fasting, holiness, and the list could go on and on. While all Christians know that the Bible is the final authority and the primary source of understanding, Christians are typically prolific book readers in nearly every topic. I'm not sure why this question was even asked.

How can a person's experience teach them things about evil spirits that the Bible doesn't teach?

How would the actual experience of actually being a shepherd shape one's understanding of the 23 Psalm? The Bible is often very brief and doesn't always go into the finer details of all matters. Sometimes the experience one has causes one to return to Scripture and say, "Ah, that's what that was!" Or, "I get it now. That's what happened."

For example, when the 120 were filled with the Holy Ghost in the upper room on the Day of Pentecost. Every man heard them in the language wherein they were born. For centuries almost every commentator writes that the 120 were gifted to speak the languages of the various nation groups there. But what does the Pentecostal experience tell us? It tells us that the 120 weren't actually speaking human languages. All 120 were speaking in unintelligible tongues as we know them. It was the onlookers who heard them, every man, in whatever language he was born in. You see, even if it was only a single person being filled in the upper room, everyone down below would hear that single person in his or hear own language. Experience can shed a radical new light on a passage.

How can a charismata of the Holy Spirit, like discerning of spirits, take the knowledge and understanding one gleans from studying the Bible and throw it out the window?

It doesn't. What I meant was that the whatever the Holy Spirit reveals in a given situation is greater than any knowledge gleaned from the opinions, techniques, or experiences from any human author goes out the widow. The ONLY time a gift of the Spirit could ever throw out what one has gleaned from the Bible is when what one has gleaned from the Bible is an incorrect or incomplete understanding.

Our Christian walks are not static. We study, learn, and grown in the grace and knowledge of Jesus and the things of God.

So then, what is the source of knowledge regarding evil spirits you claim can be had by studying other books and materials? How is it that the Spirit of Truth won't lead us into all truth in this matter, such that we have to go outside of the Spirit of Truth, that is, the Holy Spirit, to gain understanding?

Unchain the Holy Spirit my brother. Allow Him to teach you, lead you, and guide you in your studies. Sometimes the Holy Spirit will guide your studies. There are times when I've read an author's work and the Holy Spirit has impressed several key points the author made upon my heart. And other points made by the author, the Holy Spirit appears to disregard. When I was first considering entering the ministry I had been a born again Christian for nearly 7 or 8 years. I asked my pastor what I should read and study. Of course we all know one should read and study the Bible. However, my Sr. Pastor told me to read EVERYTHING. Don't stop studying. He said that valuable information can be gleaned from multiple sources. I asked about non-Apostolic authors and he said something that sticks with me even until today. He said, "Treat it all like you do eating chicken. Eat the meat, and spit out the bones." I asked, "How do I know what are bones?" He said, "The Holy Ghost will show you the difference. You'll feel it in your spirit. And truth will never contradict Scripture. But be aware, truth can often contradict what we think the Scriptures say."

Vary rarely is a human author 100% wrong or 100% right. We should allow the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us in our studies. We should also be open to the Holy Spirit revealing things through word's of knowledge, wisdom, prophesy, dreams, and visions. In addition, we should be open to the Holy Spirit challenging what we assumed we understood about the Scripture.

How does a broad range of perspectives and understandings in this area not lead to subjective, un-trustworthy, extra-Biblical revelations?

Dear brother, you and I both know that in nearly ever subject of Scripture there are various interpretations and opinions born of those interpretations. Some are indeed WAAAAY out there. However, some are rather close to the truth. Even on this forum, in every church, I'd go as far as to say even on many pews, there are a broad range of perspectives and understandings of nearly any topic you can name. And all revelatory knowledge and interpretation is subjective. For example, consider the gift of interpretation. We all believe in it, many of us have been used in this gifting, and so it is a great example. If I were to record an interpretation of tongues, would that written document be infallible and equal to Scripture? I mean, if it is an interpretation of the very Spirit of God speaking, why wouldn't it be? I've been used in the gift and I know how it works. I can tell you why an interpretation of tongues wouldn't be infallible. Can you explain why a word for word recording of an authentic interpretation of tongues ISN'T as infallible as Scripture? Can you explain why an interpretation of tongues is "subjective", even though it is an interpretation of an utterance straight from God Himself? I'm very interested in your answers.

If the Holy Scriptures are so limited and the Holy Spirit of Truth isn't doing this for us, then wouldn't it follow that the perspectives and understandings of this area would be narrow, not broad?

I think you're begging the question. Scripture's purpose isn't to be an encyclopedia covering every detail of every topic. It's rather brief. It covers everything one NEEDS to know. But not everything one can know. However, I believe we agree... something revealed by the Holy Ghost will never CONTRADICT Scripture. If it appears to, we should re-examine our interpretation and understanding of the Scripture. And, as mentioned above, revelatory knowledge impressed upon us by the Holy Spirit can be very subjective. Anyone who has ever interpreted tongues understands this reality and even understands why it is so.

Why not? Are there more evil spirits than there are angels, even though the author of Hebrews claims that the angels are innumerable (See Hebrews 12:22)? Are these angels not given to us as the heirs of salvation, per the same author's words early on in the epistle (Hebrews 1:14)?

Well, for starters, any time anyone shares an experience with an angel and what they have learned from it, they are typically criticized just as much as those who combat evil spirits. lol Why would anyone want to put something so precious to them up for scrutiny. My grandmother has an awesome story of how she claims she encountered an angel. But she will not share it with anyone but close friends and family. Let's be honest. I could share with you some things about angels, but most like yourself would be just as critical. Would you not?

Also, there is a market for the subject of spiritual warfare in the market place of ideas. Sermons, books, seminars, special speakers, DVDs, ad nauseam about spiritual warfare, spiritual victory over sinful compulsions and oppression, are far more popular than books about angels. So, naturally, it's talked about more.

TO BE CONTINUED...

[votivesoul]

Esaias, it looks like the thread you recall is this one:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ight=occultism

In particular:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=198

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Esaias, it looks like the thread you recall is this one:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ight=occultism

In particular:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=198

A perfect example of what I said before. You asked why people don't talk about angels more. But I offered an entire thread about them and the ministry of angels, and as you can see... equal criticism.

[Aquila]

CONTINUED...

How then is it that evil spirits are all around us, afflicting and over-powering God's people, constantly manifesting themselves, even to the point of giving off horrendous odors, and yet, angels barely ever do so? Is there nothing wrong in this, in your line of thinking?

The unseen war that is taking place all around us would blow our minds. The spiritual realities of both angels and demons is something few press into. For example, after Christ's temptation in the wilderness, the Bible says...

Matthew 4:11
Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

Most have never read this passage and asked, "What exactly did the angels do to minister to Jesus? How might angels be ministering to me and my family? How might I call upon angelic help to minister to me and others in prayer?" Can you answer these questions??? I'm more than willing to share my understanding if you'd like, for the Lord has opened my eyes to moments when angels have ministered to me.

You also wrote,

How then is it that evil spirits are all around us, afflicting and over-powering God's people, constantly manifesting themselves, even to the point of giving off horrendous odors,

Who said "over-powering God's people"? Who said that spirits are "constantly" manifesting themselves? Who said they are constantly manifesting themselves to the point of "giving off horrendous odors"?

First, they aren't overpowering God's people. In fact, God's people are becoming more and more knowledgeable about combating evil spirits than ever before. Second, spirits aren't "constantly" manifesting themselves, although they do manifest on occasion and we shouldn't be surprised when they do. And when they do, the power and authority of the name of Jesus is demonstrated with Spirit and power! Third, spirits don't always manifest themselves to the point of "giving off horrendous odors". It's just not unheard of. Jonathan Suber (previously UPCI) preached a message at the Apostolic Lighthouse Church in Dayton Ohio during a revival (I believe that it might have been a FEAST conference) wherein he testifies that a minotaur-like demon manifested it's presence in his office and even left hoof marks on his desk. Who would claim that demon spirits are constantly manifesting and leaving hoof marks on desks? Brother, you're distorting what I'm saying to you and then begging the questions.

First, no one here is troubled by anything Jesus said in the end of Mark 16. What's troubling is the manner in which some undertake to fulfill that portion of the Gospels.

Why be disturbed by it? Why so much fear? Try all things. Hold fast to that which is good. If the devil is cast out, why not rejoice? If the afflicted are healed, why not rejoice? Why criticize "the way" a spirit was cast out or the way someone was healed? The Western mind looks at the Scriptures like it is a recipe for a cake. To bake the cake properly, one must stick to the instructions and the recipe this time and every time! But it isn't always like that. For example, Jesus often spoke a word and the blind were healed. On another occasion, Jesus rubbed mud and spittle in a man's eyes to heal his blindness. In most occasions recorded in Scripture, Jesus commands a spirit to depart and immediately departs. But in one passage Jesus commands the spirit to depart... and in the very next verse it's still there! And so Jesus asks it's name. This isn't math. This isn't a science. It is spiritual. It is highly dynamic. Aprons and handkerchiefs were taken from the body of Paul and used to heal the sick and deliver the demonized. But we criticize a grandmother who takes a granddaughter's Teddy Bear to her prayer closet and prays over it, praying for and believing for the very same anointing that as transferred into the aprons and handkerchiefs taken from Paul's body would be imparted to the Teddy Bear... and she takes that bear and lays it next to her sleeping granddaughter in a cancer ward. I heard a man go off because it wasn't a "prayer cloth". He said, "Now, that just ain't biblical! No where in Scripture do we see children's toys being prayed over or used to heal the sick!" Why not believe for the healing? Why criticize the method. Sadly, that grandmother has more spiritual insight than the heresy-hunter criticizing her.

But in page 7, from post #69, you showed how Jesus listed seven different things the New Covenant church ought to be doing or be apart of. So, wouldn't the correct balance regarding evil spirits be that this part of New Covenant ministry is merely a seventh of the overall picture Jesus gave to us from Mark 16?

Think about what you're saying. According to your logic, that would mean that preaching the Gospel would only be 1/7th of what the church should be doing. The church is a body. We can have entire ministries dedicated to evangelism, other ministers focusing on healing, others focused on deliverance, and yet others focused on teaching, and still others focused on so many other things as the Spirit leads us. If you are the mouth, and I am a hand... should you be biting me, or should I be slapping you??? Imagine Jesus standing there biting his own hand bloody as it tries to slap his mouth like crazy! No one is saying that you and everyone else needs to get on board the deliverance train. What those in deliverance ministry covet is your prayers, support, and encouragement.

So how is it all these evil spirits have so much sway and power in the lives of God's saints,

Again, who said that "all these evil spirits have so much sway and power in the lives of God's saints"??? Here's the funny thing. There can be 50 threads on various topics. One thread pops up where the topic of spiritual warfare comes into focus and all of the sudden you're acting like it's overtaking the church! LOL Votivesoul, I assure you that evil spirits don't have all that much sway and power in the lives of saints. However, we both know that there are indeed instances wherein a saint of God can come under spiritual attacks of the mind, body, and spirit. Who would deny that???

even to the point of suggesting Modest Mama is being haunted by one because of some dreams she has been having?

Ah, but you didn't discern the issue as she was seeing it and experiencing it, nor how the Holy Spirit had already begun to direct her towards the study of spiritual warfare and deliverance. You gave some rather down to earth advice. But it wasn't reflecting her experience nor her unknown inquiry on the matter at the time. And she's not just having "some dreams". Now your down playing her situation. It is my understanding that she is having some rather troubling dreams that leave her feeling unsteady about herself, her purpose in God's Kingdom, and others. She's also acting-out with disturbing behaviors in her sleep that she can't remember. Anything that makes you feel unsteady regarding your faith or your place in God's Kingdom is not of God. Anything that takes control of you, without your permission, and causes you to do disturbing things that you can't remember, is not of God. It has the possibility of demonic oppression written all over it. I have no problem with her seeing a doctor about the issue. And, as most know, I am not opposed to sound Christian counseling. However, I am also not opposed to spiritual warfare. If she is being targeted by a spirit... you didn't even hold it out as a possibility. Why? For fear of criticism? Looking silly? Seeming to be too radical? Why? How do you imagine Jesus would have ministered to her if she explained that she was tormented by occasional dreams wherein she's doing something she detests, and when this happens she's acting-out in disturbing ways in her sleep and she can't remember it? Do you think it would read, "And Jesus saith unto her, Daughter of Zion you are vexed with Parasomnia. I beseech thee to find a sleep clinic and have thine issue resolved." No. I think it's obvious what Jesus would most likely do about whatever this is that torments her dreams and seizes her body while sleeping.

Is that not the height of irresponsibility, to take a forum member that you don't know personally, who doesn't post here often, whose walk with God you have not observed personally, who confesses to some frightening dreams,

You're right. I have not observed her walk personally, nor do I know her personally. One could indeed argue that it is the high of irresponsibility. Or... one could argue that what you see here is a demonstration of spiritual discernment regarding the true nature of this sister's question an circumstance.

[Aquila]

Continued...

So, do what you want with it, but people have been warning you. The smart thing to do is step back and reconsider. But, you're a big boy, you can make your own decisions.

I'll step back and reconsider. But try to understand me. I'm not coming at this from a purely theoretical position that is only on paper. I've either been there or done that. It's an experience. I can't deny what I've personally seen and know.

And to the charge that I'm the expert on everything. I'm not. I get eaten alive on the eschatology threads. LOL I'd like to submit a possibility for you to consider as I step back and reconsider things. Is it possible that I primarily respond to things or post about things that I am rather familiar with? And as a result, I sound like a know it all? I mean, I can pretend I've never seen or experienced the things we talk about, but that would be a lie to join this "club" of sorts that seems to attack me from all directions. It wouldn't be honest. It wouldn't be truth.

For example, have you ever been involved with fishing out evil spirit in a home? Sure, you've said prayers rebuking "bumps in the night" and the "spirit of anger" or "lust" or "addiction" in your own home and for a couple other people. But this is different. It's a "deliverance prayer meeting". You're told that it might go on all night "if necessary". You have several brothers from a couple different churches who showed up with pop, tea, coffee, chips, and sandwiches. They greet each other and laugh and chit-chat like old friends, but this is your first time. You're introduced and they ask you if you've done this before and you say no. They look at each other and smile, "You're going to see the power of God, my brother.", they say to you. One quotes a Scripture, "The gates of Hell shell NOT PREVAIL.", in joyful voice. They others individually say, "Amen." One starts setting up snack trays, sandwiches, and drinks in the kitchen. You don't know what to expect. You feel like you're primarily an observer. The woman who lives in the home is divorced. She has her aunt (who says "Somethin' just isn't right in this house.") is at the house with her. Her kids are at her mom's. You're thinking, "Wow, they must take this kinda seriously to evacuate the kids." There's a box of a couple things the lady of the house had boxed up to be thrown out. All you see in the box is a few CDs, what looks like a paperback book or two, a roach clip, and the side of a dream catcher. Two brothers take it outside and dump the stuff into the garbage. Matt calls the group into the living room and introduces everyone. He explains that the goal is to "confirm and cast out" any evil spirit in the home. He shares that Rachel, the woman who lives there, has experienced: anxiety, nightmares, mood swings, had thoughts of suicide, and feels like she's being watched. She's afraid for her children. He shares that she occasionally hears something call her name, but nothing is there. She also states that she's heard something moving around, like walking or crawling on occasion. So Matt opens in prayer, everyone prays. Some speak in tongues others do not. There is praise, worship, clapping, and a few whoots and "Hallelujahs". People are pleading the blood over one another, in the name of Jesus. Matt has everyone take a seat. Some are on the couch, some are seated on a love seat, and the rest are on some folding chairs. You're thinking they must be from a church, they have that white plastic seat and back to them. Matt opens his Bible and starts reading in Mark 16:15-18, and then he re-reads verse 17 where it says, "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils." Matt begins teaching on what evil spirits are (fallen angels) and offers some of the traditional verses to support that conclusion. He begins talking about Jesus and how many times he cast out an evil spirit in the Gospels. He gets into the church and the book of Acts where it describes devils being cast out. He reiterates, "The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against the church." After the Bible study which lasts maybe 30 to 40 minutes, Matt closes the meeting with prayer and opportunity for repentance and the confession of sin, he talks about how the devil is a liar and is already trying to discourage people from casting out devils by making them feel unworthy and throwing their back into their faces. Matt then requests that we thank God for the victory ahead of time and then he speaks straight to any spiritual presence that isn't of God, telling it that it's days are numbered and that tonight will be the last night it will be in the house. Everyone praises and worships one last time. He then explains that we are going to have a deliverance prayer meeting. He asks that the lights be softened and that some praise and worship music be played on the living room stereo. Everyone gets up and begins walking around the house, in different directions, praising Jesus and praying for others and reminding any spirit in the home that it is already defeated. Rachel is praying and crying. Now, some time has passed. Rachel and her aunt are in the living room watching television and yawning. A couple brothers are walking the yard in prayer. You and Matt are in the dining room praying, rocking back and forth on chairs, another brother is in the kitchen praying. You're feeling board. And you're wondering why all the worship and praise just to fish this thing out...when you could have already said a prayer and gone out to eat? How did you feel when suddenly things get real strange... like a weird silence and a strange lull falls over the group... the lights flicker, and the two dogs that were in secured in the laundry room suddenly break into a dog-fight-to-the-death, with snarling, growling, and yelping. Rachel and her aunt get up to split the dogs up and that's when Matt says it, "There it is. Here we go..." and without warning he begins pleading the blood and commanding it out in the name of Jesus. A couple other brothers are praying similarly and are worshipping in the middle of Matts prayers. There are a few whoots, a shout, and people start clapping harder, Matt encourages everyone to keep worshipping, saying, "I rebuke you in Jesus name, I cast you out, you have no authority in this place!" A couple people stomp and shout rebuking the enemy in their own words, something breaks and soon there is this sense of peace and people start crying. Matt is in the living room praying with Rachel and her aunt while holding the dogs. Rachel is crying as Matt prays with her telling her it's gone and is affirming her identity in Christ. There are some more shouts of praise and worship, only now people are thanking Jesus for removing the spirit. Matt is walking the house and pleading the blood with Rachel in every room to insulate it from the enemy. He's fired up. Things die down and a couple brothers help clean up the kitchen. Everyone is happy and talking about how good God is as people start putting on their coats and gathering their things to leave. People walk by Rachel and affirm that she's going to be blessed now that the thing is gone. You walk out to your car and Matt waves before getting into his car. He rolls down the window and says, "Hey! Call me tomorrow, I know it's late. I want to know if you had any questions about what happened here tonight." You agree to call him the next day and then you look at your watch. It's after 3am. You get into your Jeep Liberty and drive home pondering the events of the evening.

Can you just sit that experience, and experiences like, them aside and think, none of that is real...but some criticism from a stranger on the internet is?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Continued...



I'll step back and reconsider. But try to understand me. I'm not coming at this from a purely theoretical position that is only on paper. I've either been there or done that. It's an experience. I can't deny what I've personally seen and know.

And to the charge that I'm the expert on everything. I'm not. I get eaten alive on the eschatology threads. LOL I'd like to submit a possibility for you to consider as I step back and reconsider things. Is it possible that I primarily respond to things or post about things that I am rather familiar with? And as a result, I sound like a know it all? I mean, I can pretend I've never seen or experienced the things we talk about, but that would be a lie to join this "club" of sorts that seems to attack me from all directions. It wouldn't be honest. It wouldn't be truth.

For example, have you ever been involved with fishing out evil spirit in a home? Sure, you've said prayers rebuking "bumps in the night" and the "spirit of anger" or "lust" or "addiction" in your own home and for a couple other people. But this is different. It's a "deliverance prayer meeting". You're told that it might go on all night "if necessary". You have several brothers from a couple different churches who showed up with pop, tea, coffee, chips, and sandwiches. They greet each other and laugh and chit-chat like old friends, but this is your first time. You're introduced and they ask you if you've done this before and you say no. They look at each other and smile, "You're going to see the power of God, my brother.", they say to you. One quotes a Scripture, "The gates of Hell shell NOT PREVAIL.", in joyful voice. They others individually say, "Amen." One starts setting up snack trays, sandwiches, and drinks in the kitchen. You don't know what to expect. You feel like you're primarily an observer. The woman who lives in the home is divorced. She has her aunt (who says "Somethin' just isn't right in this house.") is at the house with her. Her kids are at her mom's. You're thinking, "Wow, they must take this kinda seriously to evacuate the kids." There's a box of a couple things the lady of the house had boxed up to be thrown out. All you see in the box is a few CDs, what looks like a paperback book or two, a roach clip, and the side of a dream catcher. Two brothers take it outside and dump the stuff into the garbage. Matt calls the group into the living room and introduces everyone. He explains that the goal is to "confirm and cast out" any evil spirit in the home. He shares that Rachel, the woman who lives there, has experienced: anxiety, nightmares, mood swings, had thoughts of suicide, and feels like she's being watched. She's afraid for her children. He shares that she occasionally hears something call her name, but nothing is there. She also states that she's heard something moving around, like walking or crawling on occasion. So Matt opens in prayer, everyone prays. Some speak in tongues others do not. There is praise, worship, clapping, and a few whoots and "Hallelujahs". People are pleading the blood over one another, in the name of Jesus. Matt has everyone take a seat. Some are on the couch, some are seated on a love seat, and the rest are on some folding chairs. You're thinking they must be from a church, they have that white plastic seat and back to them. Matt opens his Bible and starts reading in Mark 16:15-18, and then he re-reads verse 17 where it says, "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils." Matt begins teaching on what evil spirits are (fallen angels) and offers some of the traditional verses to support that conclusion. He begins talking about Jesus and how many times he cast out an evil spirit in the Gospels. He gets into the church and the book of Acts where it describes devils being cast out. He reiterates, "The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against the church." After the Bible study which lasts maybe 30 to 40 minutes, Matt closes the meeting with prayer and opportunity for repentance and the confession of sin, he talks about how the devil is a liar and is already trying to discourage people from casting out devils by making them feel unworthy and throwing their back into their faces. Matt then requests that we thank God for the victory ahead of time and then he speaks straight to any spiritual presence that isn't of God, telling it that it's days are numbered and that tonight will be the last night it will be in the house. Everyone praises and worships one last time. He then explains that we are going to have a deliverance prayer meeting. He asks that the lights be softened and that some praise and worship music be played on the living room stereo. Everyone gets up and begins walking around the house, in different directions, praising Jesus and praying for others and reminding any spirit in the home that it is already defeated. Rachel is praying and crying. Now, some time has passed. Rachel and her aunt are in the living room watching television and yawning. A couple brothers are walking the yard in prayer. You and Matt are in the dining room praying, rocking back and forth on chairs, another brother is in the kitchen praying. You're feeling board. And you're wondering why all the worship and praise just to fish this thing out...when you could have already said a prayer and gone out to eat? How did you feel when suddenly things get real strange... like a weird silence and a strange lull falls over the group... the lights flicker, and the two dogs that were in secured in the laundry room suddenly break into a dog-fight-to-the-death, with snarling, growling, and yelping. Rachel and her aunt get up to split the dogs up and that's when Matt says it, "There it is. Here we go..." and without warning he begins pleading the blood and commanding it out in the name of Jesus. A couple other brothers are praying similarly and are worshipping in the middle of Matts prayers. There are a few whoots, a shout, and people start clapping harder, Matt encourages everyone to keep worshipping, saying, "I rebuke you in Jesus name, I cast you out, you have no authority in this place!" A couple people stomp and shout rebuking the enemy in their own words, something breaks and soon there is this sense of peace and people start crying. Matt is in the living room praying with Rachel and her aunt while holding the dogs. Rachel is crying as Matt prays with her telling her it's gone and is affirming her identity in Christ. There are some more shouts of praise and worship, only now people are thanking Jesus for removing the spirit. Matt is walking the house and pleading the blood with Rachel in every room to insulate it from the enemy. He's fired up. Things die down and a couple brothers help clean up the kitchen. Everyone is happy and talking about how good God is as people start putting on their coats and gathering their things to leave. People walk by Rachel and affirm that she's going to be blessed now that the thing is gone. You walk out to your car and Matt waves before getting into his car. He rolls down the window and says, "Hey! Call me tomorrow, I know it's late. I want to know if you had any questions about what happened here tonight." You agree to call him the next day and then you look at your watch. It's after 3am. You get into your Jeep Liberty and drive home pondering the events of the evening.

Can you just sit that experience, and experiences like, them aside and think, none of that is real...but some criticism from a stranger on the internet is?

What is this?