Submission? Or Power and Control?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Its been done before, but ILG always takes it personal and refuses to actually defend what she posts in a logical manner. Additionally, the holy magic hair doctrine has already been refuted here before, numerous times. Nobody here (to my knowledge) believes holy magic hair nonsense.



Biblical wisdom often demands a response of not responding.

Good save!

I would like to know how the cherubims covering the ark correlate with a woman's hair covering in the NT. How did someone logically come to that conclusion? I just don't see it.

It seems as simple as JFB puts it - Hebrews 9:5 - "And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly." - the cherubim, the personified [redeemed] creation, looking down on the mercy seat, where God's mercy, and God's law, are set forth as the basis of creation.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by houston

WB.

I am a little slow today. I thought, What? Warner Brothers? Oh, Welcome Back! Thanks and I hope you are doing well!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Good save!

I would like to know how the cherubims covering the ark correlate with a woman's hair covering in the NT. How did someone logically come to that conclusion? I just don't see it.

It seems as simple as JFB puts it - Hebrews 9:5 - "And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly." - the cherubim, the personified [redeemed] creation, looking down on the mercy seat, where God's mercy, and God's law, are set forth as the basis of creation.

The cherubim guarded the way to the Tree of Life, and kept sinful man out. The cherubim on the mercy seat (throne of God) symbolically guarded the presence of God. The mercy seat itself covered the ten commandments on stone tables, thus shielding us from the curse of the law.

The woman is the glory of the man, and thus ought to be covered, whereas the man is the glory of God and ought not to be covered.

Hair is nature's lesson confirming that women ought to be covered and men uncovered when praying or prophesying. For, if a woman isn't going to be covered, then her hair ought to be cut short, which would be a shame. Therefore, let her be covered.

The woman ought to have exousia - a token or sign of authority - on her head, because of the messengers. The head covering serves as a sign that Divine Authority is in place and being followed in the assembly.

I'm not sure a connection between the cherubim and the head covering - much less the long hair - of a woman can be made???

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Someone needs to line out the scripture text, if it is there, on this one particular part - Is the "glory" of the angel's wings covering the Ark of the Covenant a type and shadow of the woman's long hair being her covering in the NT?

No, it's the head covering.



The wings of the cherubim on the mercy seat are not like most drawings we see, like this:



Rather, the mercy seat is more of a throne where God, the King, sits. As such, the cherubim wings are more likely to form the back and arm rests, like an actual throne, as in this:



Keeping in mind, though, the cherubim were NOT modern "angels" or "people with wings" but more like the winged lion-bulls found throughout the ancient near east:

Cherubim throne in ivory found at Megiddo:



Assyrian cherub statue:



So picture the ark as a throne with two large cherubim (bull-like figures with wings and human and lion characteristics) forming the seat part. The wings would form the back and armrests, or perhaps serve as a type of canopy, or both. Perhaps like this (side view, body more lion-like than ox-like, however, in this rendering):



In any event, the woman's head covering is said by Paul to be necessary to cover her head, which represents the glory of man:

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

Under the new covenant, God's glory is not to be covered, as it was under the old covenant. This is symbolized by the Christian man having his head uncovered when ministering, whereas the priest in the old covenant had his head covered (with a turban, or bonnet) - see Ex 28:40.

God's plan requires His glory be on display, and man's glory be covered. This is symbolized by the woman's head being covered, since she is "the glory of the man".

Under the old covenant, the law is covered or concealed by the mercy seat (the "atonement" or "covering"). The law written on stone tables represents the old covenant, which is subordinate to the new covenant. As the woman is subordinate to the man in the hierarchy of God's creation, the old covenant is subordinate to the new in the hierarchy of God's covenants. The woman is covered, as the stone tables were covered.

I am sure more correlations could be found if pressed, but to suggest the cherubim covering the mercy seat = divine power flowing through the women's head covering (or hair, if you believe that way) seems extremely forced and unnatural.

Paul taught on head covering and nowhere gave the idea that covering = special abilities or special favours. The most that can be said is obedience to God brings favor, and disobedience brings corrective chastisement. But that is true of anything.

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I am a little slow today. I thought, What? Warner Brothers? Oh, Welcome Back! Thanks and I hope you are doing well!

PO it is good to see you around these parts again.........

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by ILG

This sets a foundation of fear.

Warning and admonishing people not to sin because it brings on bad juju is not "setting a foundation of fear", as if this is a bad thing. The fear of the Lord is to hate evil, to depart from evil, to avoid what is contrary to God's will. That is a good thing. But the wicked do not have that fear of God, instead they think it's all "hellfire and damnation preaching to scare people into being mind control victims".

Originally Posted by ILG

Here is where the issue of control begins to be addressed. “Women have always sought control. In centuries past they were subservient to men….through witchcraft they (pagan cultures) obtained control of kingdoms….they learned how to reverse God’s divine order….pg 27….they shaved their heads…abortion and infanticide were regularly practiced….women….have used sex to wield power over men…pg 28

Now pay attention here: “Women do not need the use of perversion to manipulate their surroundings. For God has given women a way to control their environment without sin. God put women in the middle for a reason….she has the unique ability to mediate and resolve problems. Yet many in-between women are not in control of their situations simply because they are ignorant of God’s endowment. When a woman submits to God’s precepts she will find a channel to glory…..He will make a way where there seems to be no way!” What??? So, if a woman desires to control and manipulate, she should not do it by sex or witchcraft but by not cutting her hair?? Amazing! Confounding!!

Amazing that you confounded the author's meaning. They are not suggesting that women have a Biblical way to manipulate people. Rather, they are saying women have sought control and power through illegitimate means, attempting to control their personal environment by manipulating men and society. Instead, a godly woman is not helpless and powerless, she CAN affect and influence her environment/situation, but in a godly way, by godly means, by being a genuinely godly woman in submission to God's precepts. You have twisted what was said into a caricature, a straw man, that you can knock down.

Originally Posted by ILG

Do you see how this message could really be enticing to a woman who feels out of control in her life? All she has to do is stop cutting her hair and she will have power and control! This is really dangerous because instead of working towards a true and positive solution for real problems, a woman’s energy is diverted into “long hair” and the belief that it gives her some special power. So, how does a sign that is supposed to be about submission (according to UPC theology) turn into one of power and control? I think the whole thing is about power and control from beginning to end.

Written for the Facebook Group: Breaking Out

Is the whole book about uncut hair?

[houston]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Is the whole book about uncut hair?

Maybe

Product Description
A unique study on the subject holiness. This lesson explores the visions of Ezekiel, giving knowledgeable information about the cherubim and seraphim. The Glory of God is emphasized as the authors discuss divine order, honor, and respect for God's holiness. Holiness is not a list of rules, but rather preparing an environment for the glory of God. Also available is a CD, Video, and DVD by the same title.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by houston

Maybe

I've been trying to find out how many pages are in the book but I can't seem to find that info anywhere.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by ILG

Do you see how this message could really be enticing to a woman who feels out of control in her life? All she has to do is stop cutting her hair and she will have power and control! This is really dangerous because instead of working towards a true and positive solution for real problems, a woman’s energy is diverted into “long hair” and the belief that it gives her some special power. So, how does a sign that is supposed to be about submission (according to UPC theology) turn into one of power and control? I think the whole thing is about power and control from beginning to end.

We live in interesting times. The cultural backlash against Biblical norms and customs for women and femininity is at an all time high. The Church is all too often found being influenced by the world, instead of the other way around.

One of ways the world has successfully deceived members of the Body of Christ, particularly women, is by linking the word "submission" to "doormat".

The world has had such an awful history when it comes to women being harassed, manipulated, abused, raped, tortured, and murdered, especially in patriarchal societies, that to even suggest a woman ought to submit to her husband comes across as misogynistic and degrading, at least in our Western, 21st century, post-modern culture.

For this reason, many Apostolic women are being fed from two different spoons. They are being presented with a false dichotomy. One spoon contains Biblical morsels about marriage, respect, submission, and etc. None dare pretend they don't stand for these things.

But the other spoon contains worldly morsels about how ugly and hurtful and stupid and mean men are vis a vis how beautiful and caring and intelligent and kind women are, so it's best to make sure you never find yourself underneath one, or, if you do, make sure you let him known who's in charge. Headship becomes neckship.

Now, this second message could never overtly be preached to any Apostolic woman, because everyone would recognize it for what it is: slander and blasphemy.

So, instead, alternative methods are devised in which this second message can be spiritually codified and justified through the perverting of certain verses of Holy Scripture. Then it can be preached as revelation and insight into the deep mysteries of God.

But the "power on her head" phrase has been used so much over the last couple of decades to engender and propagate so many bad ideas and false doctrines as to stagger the mind.

So, for the "silly woman" who is "laden with sins", who is carnally minded, these worldly morsels entice her into circumnavigating God's established order so it can be redefined and made into something it's not, something that is easy to swallow and makes for good sermon and book fodder, especially at retreats and conventions.

Therefore, there will be no end to this kind of nonsense. Paul called it out way back when, and whether or not anyone, man or woman, cares at all about what the Lord's emissary to the Gentiles had to say, or not, is really something no one can adequately measure or enforce, one way or the other.

Everyone will be persuaded each in their own minds. All anyone can do is continue to declare the right ways of the Lord and depend upon Him to sort His people out.

[houston]

The woman has wanted to exercise control over man since the fall. Eve's desire for her husband was the desire to control him. (Whoops)