Rome is Babylon

[Amanah]

ok, you all have made great points and I've made adjustments.
I am still working through this, I have a preterist/historicist viewpoint
(funny how that is)

So, Revelation was written to the seven churches of Asia, who were being persecuted by Rome/Jerusalem

• Rev 1-3, letters to the churches in Asia
• Rev 4-5, New Covenant in Christ
• Rev 6-11, Judgment on OT covenant breakers (mimicking Exodus)
• Rev 11:8, The great city is Jerusalem
• Rev 12, Israel gives birth to Jesus, NT saints are persecuted
• Rev 13, the Sea beast is Rome
• Rev 13:11-18, The Land beast is the Corrupted Priesthood
• Rev 14-18, Mystery Babylon, Babylonian Talmudic false religion/harlot
• Rev 18-19, destruction of the Roman/Babylonian system
• Rev 20-22, future resurrection, Millennium, restoration of Eden.

Scripture is written for the 1st century audience, but is applicable to us today.

I think that "666" referred to Nero, and that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD as a judgement on Judean covenant breakers and for rejecting Messiah.

Babel/Babylon is the mother of false religion, which infected the Judeans who were in captivity in Babylon, and that false doctrine not only corrupted the Judeans, but has corrupted the Church of Constantine and is still corrupting religion to this day.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I think that "666" referred to Nero,

There are numerous reasons to doubt that.

1. The Revelation was written in Greek, to Greek-reading and Greek-speaking Christians. The "666" which was to be "reckoned" or "counted" would need to be counted in Greek. Those who claim Nero as being the solution require the use of Hebrew gematria. They also require the transposition of several letters, changing Nero Kaesar to Nrwn Ksr, which means one has to use a technically incorrect spelling of Nero's name and title in Hebrew in order to get "666". The ordinary Hebrew spelling was Nrw Kysr. So you have to add a letter to "Nero" and drop a letter from "Caesar" to get a Hebrew variant that adds to 666 in Hebrew. In Greek, Nero's name adds up to 1005, and graffitti in Rome common at the time Nero murdered his mother referred to him as "1005" (which is also the numerical value of the phrase "murdered his mother"). It doesn't make sense for a Greek document, written to Greek-speakers, to require Hebrew gematria of a mispelled name, instead of Greek gematria of a Greek name.
   
2. The number is "the number of the Beast" and also "the number of (a) man". The Beast is undoubtedly Rome. While Nero was an emperor of Rome, he died prior to the destruction of Jerusalem, whereas the Beast continued on afterwards. Once Nero died, there would be no "mark of allegiance to Nero" left.
   
3. The mark was not instituted by the Beast itself, but by the Second Beast (aka False Prophet), which also instituted a policy that nobody could buy or sell without the mark, or the name, or the number of the Beast. Proponents of the Nero theory often point to Roman coins carrying Nero's name and profile pic, yet also claim the False Prophet is the High Priest. The problem is, the High Priest did not cause everyone to use Roman currency in order to transact any financial business.
   
4. As previously stated, if the Beast is Nero, then preterism is in error since Nero died prior to the destruction of Jerusalem. However, if the Beast is the Roman Empire, preterism is again in error because after the destruction of Babylon the Beast is taken and utterly destroyed, which historically could not possibly have happened until centuries after 70 AD. In other words, preterism becomes self-refuting at this point.
   
5. The Revelation presents a claim that the mark is given universally, and that those who have the victory over the mark are part of the company of saints. Yet if Nero is represented by the mark, then any upstart rebellion during his short tenure would be included in the company of saints, which is absurd. Nero reigned from 54 to 68 AD. During his tenure, there were several rebellions against his authority by pagans, including the one in Spain in AD 68 led by governor Caius Vindex. The Judeans rebelled in AD 66. The Bible, however, gives no indication that ANY of the Beast's subjects rebel, let alone Mystery Babylon. It makes no sense to say the Judeans were worshipping the Beast and in bed with the Beast and rebelling against the Beast all at the same time.
   
6. There is no record of anyone in the post-apostolic period claiming Nero as the solution to 666. The first appearance of Nero as the name signified by 666 appears to have come about in the 1800s. I have yet to find a source documenting anyone saying "666 signifies Nero" prior to the 1830s. Preterists claim the Apocalypse must have made sense to the people to whom it was written to, and conclude that first century Christians in Asia Minor who read and spoke Greek would have understood 666 to refer to a Hebrew mis-spelling of Nero's name and title. However, nobody immediately after the events seemed to have known that Nero was the meaning of 666. In fact, nobody seems to have figured it out until the 19th century. Which means either the Apocalypse utterly failed to convey needed and timely information to the readers, or the readers utterly failed to understand the information given them, or preterism and the Nero hypothesis are incorrect.
   
7. Some will try to argue for the variant reading "616" as proof of Nero being "666", but the argument is self-refuting and absurd since it presupposes an intentional corruption of the text of Revelation as a proof of the doctrine. Hardly solid ground worth standing on.
   
8. All external evidence and much internal evidence suggests that the Apocalypse was written and distributed AFTER the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. This alone renders the question moot and refutes the idea that Nero is 666 unless one wishes to claim the book is not prophecy at all but a pious fraud. Arguments claiming an early date for the Revelation are circular (since a post AD 70 date for Revelation is completely and irrevocably fatal to the preterist interpretation). And even if it was written prior to Ad 70, the information it contained would only have been good for about 10 years (if preterist claims are true), which seems insufficient considering the slow speed with which Revelation was distributed and accepted throughout the churches. The only reason it is even considered part of the Bible and not apocryphal like the "Book of Enoch" and others, is because of the testimonies of early Antenicene writers. Yet those writers all seemed oblivious to and ignorant of any "Nero = 666" understanding. There were also Antenicene writers who rejected the book as being canonical. All this indicates the preterist claims regarding the purpose and scope of the book are factually in error and belied by the actual historical circumstances.

and that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD as a judgement on Judean covenant breakers and for rejecting Messiah.

yes, as per the Olivet Prophecy of Christ Himself (Matthew 24).

Babel/Babylon is the mother of false religion, which infected the Judeans who were in captivity in Babylon, and that false doctrine not only corrupted the Judeans, but has corrupted the Church of Constantine and is still corrupting religion to this day.

Correct. But we have to ask "Where did the church of Constantine come from?" It did not drop out of the sky full-fledged and ready to go in the 4th century...

[houston]

Esaias here raining on my preterist parade

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by houston

Esaias here raining on my preterist parade

lol

Not trying to rain on anyone's parade, just sharing information and thoughts. I think God is calling us all to drop all our "-isms" and discover Truth.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

There are numerous reasons to doubt that.

Correct. But we have to ask "Where did the church of Constantine come from?" It did not drop out of the sky full-fledged and ready to go in the 4th century...

is this book going to help me with that:

New Testament History Paperback – March 15, 1983
by F. F. Bruce (Author)

This book recounts the Roman and Jewish context of New Testament times...the lives of John and Jesus, and the history of the first two generations of the Church.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/03...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Evang.Benincasa]

Here's an umbrella

This small papyrus fragment (P115), which is dated to the late third or early fourth century, is from the Oxyrhynchus Papyri at Oxford University. Totaling 616, the numbers chi (600), iota (10), and stigma (6) are visible in the third line. Although no longer used, stigma then was the sixth letter in the Greek alphabet.
There are four ancient codices written in uncial script that preserve the Bible in Greek: Codex Sinaiticus (British Library), Codex Vaticanus (Vatican Library), Codex Alexandrinus (British Library), and Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus (National Library of France), the latter which also has the number of the Beast as hexakosiai deka hex (616). Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus record 666. Codex Vaticanus does not include Revelation.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/...tors/nero.html

This book comes in kindle, and e-book

https://www.amazon.com/Iota-Sigma-Tr.../dp/B00ROA0WLQ

Anyway, you will find that 616 and 666 were the same number, Greek letter numbering system changed as time moved on. So, pop open the umbrellas.

Also take everything in the above articles with a grain of salt, eat the fish spit out the bones.

My position is still 666, being the same as 616, still looking into that. But, still, you all have to keep in mind that the first century Asia Minor churches had to do the calculation, they were admonished to have the wisdom. The person who the number name referred to had to be alive in order to make the match. Isaiah already proved to us that names are balantaly given of world rulers before they are born. This time it isn't the case, the first century Asia Minor churches of Diaspora Judeans are given Gematria code to figure it out and make their match. If the number was found to be 4567 and not Nero Caesar, it still doesn't change the time indicator for those who were the original readers to be the ONES to make the calculations. God doesn't give admonition for His people to do tasks which would only be possible 2,000 years in their future. It would be like the instructions of the Ark being mentions to Noah, but really the Ark was supposed to be built on Sept 23rd 2017.

[mfblume]

The evidence behind the mark of the beast related to Nero is overwhelming.

Not only is Hebrew the gematriacal equivalent of Nero's name, but the VULGATE, which is the Latin version of the New Testament, works out to Nero as well.

In the Vulgate, the numbers are not 666 but 616. When you do the name for Nero in Latin it's numerical equivalent is 616.

If you were trying to appeal to Latin speaking people, and the number would not fit in Latin as it would Greek, one would reasonably use the number that fits in Latin. Only Nero fits both.

Also, people in John's day would have to be able to count that number in their day, and get the message. It could not be something John would not be able to determine because John wrote the one who has wisdom IN HIS DAY can count that number.

[mfblume]

I posted my previous post today without having read Bro Benincasa's note! We basically said the same thing. Woohoo!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I posted my previous post today without having read Bro Benincasa's note! We basically said the same thing. Woohoo!

[Evang.Benincasa]

When I get the chance to go pick up Esaias we will drive up to Wisconsin, pick up Brothers Aaron, Burk. Then head to Canada get Brother Blume, and Dave Garret (he can play the piano in the back seat of the Lincoln). Go to Utah, and get the old cowboy. We will all head to California to find the King of the Apostolic Island called CARM. Ask the king to dance and sing, to teach us about not anything. It will be a hoot!