Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

[Originalist]

Sean, just curious,

What verses in Matthew 24 first describe the coming of Christ?

[Sean]

It makes perfect sense to me.

It is crazy to think that this.....



Revelation 21King James Version (KJV)

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.....





Is how the book started.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

It makes perfect sense to me.

It is crazy to think that this.....



Revelation 21King James Version (KJV)

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.....





Is how the book started.

Yes and in the 2 chapters previous the Marriage Supper is announced and the first resurrection happens.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

It makes perfect sense to me.

It is crazy to think that this.....



Revelation 21King James Version (KJV)

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.....





Is how the book started.

Sean, just curious,

What verses in Matthew 24 first describe the coming of Christ?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Sean

Matthew 24
King James Version (KJV)
24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?...3 QUESTIONS HERE



4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
This is the worldwide, end of age part.





9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. This is the dispersion of Jews/Christians part. ad70 until today



11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. This is a warning to end time Israel, before the Tribulation.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This is during the tribulation and its ending.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. This is a warning to be watching, particularly Israel and the saints of God in the last days of the Last days events to precede the rapture and tribulation.





NOW HERE IS HIS DISCOURSE/DIGRESSION OF THE RAPTURE...
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus explained the events of the Great Tribulation, then digresses in the middle of it, then proceeds to finish the Trib's events.


This digression is not found in the book of Rev.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

Jesus explained the events of the Great Tribulation, then digresses in the middle of it, then proceeds to finish the Trib's events.


This is not found in the book of Rev.

Ok let's try this again.

In Matthew 24, in what VERSE (singular) is the coming of Christ first mentioned?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Sean

Now, watch Jesus digress in Luke 21 also.....




6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

They asked Jesus ONLY about the destruction of the temple here, but Jesus gives them more info than they actually asked for, just like Matt. 24...



8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven......
Now this above is the series of General signs before His 2nd coming.



Notice now..."but (before) all these", addressing their original question...
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. At this point, Jesus is finished with the destruction of Jerusalem explanation and proceeds to speak of His 2nd coming signs...


25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. These above are the signs that Jesus wanted to point out of His 2nd coming in these end times.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Here, Jesus gives us a warning to watch for these signs, before His return...FOR THE WHOLE EARTH....LOOK BELOW

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the (whole earth).

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Same with Luke's account.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If you notice, the rapture cult is actually a FEAR BASED MIND CONTROL CULT, that induces people to SIN AGAINST CHRIST and DENY THE FAITH.

I will prove it.

Look at what has been presented as one of the chief arguments in favor of rapturism: FEAR OF WHAT'S COMING. Rapturism does not promote the fear OF GOD, but rather the fear of man, the fear of death, the fear of "what's coming", the fear of suffering, and the fear of persecution.

in Luke 12:4-5 Jesus warns us not to fear men, but to fear God. Rapture cultists seek to instill in you the fear of men, the "Antichrist", and the horrible persecutors who will be running rampant during the "great tribulation." Rapturism seeks to get you to disobey Jesus and fear men.

Hebrews 2:15 says our Lord came to deliver us who were captive to the devil because of the fear of death. Rapturism wants you to fear dying a horrible death, and thus deny the Saving Grace of Jesus Christ.

Luke 21:6 describes men's hearts failing them for fear because of what they EXPECT to come upon the earth. But who are the fearful ones? The unregenerate sinners! Hebrews 10:26-27 shows that it is the SINNERS who fear coming judgments, not sanctified believers. Pre trib rapturism wants you to have no genuine faith, but to be afraid like sinners (see Isaiah 33:14).

2 Timothy 2:12 says if we suffer with Him we shall reign with Him. Rapture cultists want you to shrink from suffering, to ROB YOU OF THE OPPORTUNITY TO REIGN WITH CHRIST. We have been CALLED TO SUFFER according to 1 Peter 2:20-21, and rapturism is a religion that offers a different "call", a call to escape suffering. It is not of God.

2 Timothy 3:12 declares that ALL who will live godly in Christ SHALL BE PERSECUTED. It is something ALL Christians are to expect. But rapturism offers a Christianity that will save you FROM PERSECUTION! It's message is the EXACT OPPOSITE of original apostolic Christianity.

Jesus said we must take up our cross and die to self. We must lose our lives for His sake. But if we try to save our life, we WILL LOSE IT. Rapturism presents a scary, frightening view of the future, focusing on the persecution (if the saints are gone, who's being persecuted???) and tribulation, suffering and death. Then once you are good and scared, they offer the " Rapture™" as your escape hatch, your getaway car. They lead your mind away from the proper Biblical attitude, and lead you into a self-centered self-seeking "save my hide" mentality. They want you to DENY THE CROSS. Why does pre trib rapture doctrine result in an effectual DENIAL OF THE CROSS? Because it is OF SATAN.

This is classic fear-based mind control cultic behavior. Scare you as much as possible, but not a fear of GOD! No, a fear of the future, death, suffering, persecution. A fear of everything GOD TOLD YOU NOT TO FEAR.

Who would come up with such a Christ-denying, cross insulting, faith killing religion? THE DEVIL, that's who.

"Believe pre trib rapture because the alternative is too scary for you to think about." Straight out of the Jehovah's (False)Witnesses playbook.

Wow! Hard hitting and powerful truth!

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Ok let's try this again.

In Matthew 24, in what VERSE (singular) is the coming of Christ first mentioned?

Are you saying Jesus did not digress in Matt 24 or Luke 21?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

Jesus explained the events of the Great Tribulation, then digresses in the middle of it, then proceeds to finish the Trib's events.


This is not found in the book of Rev.

And where exactly is this digression? In what verse does it begin?