Psychotropic Drugs in Religious Rituals

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Aquila I have a question for you. You have been having this same conversation in one form or another for over a year. Why do you keep going there? Surely you don't expect for someone who lives by faith and believes God for healing, and preaches this to back up and suddenly say, "ok Chris, you are right, smoke some weed"

You're right. I don't expect that, nor is that what I want. That is a distortion of what I'm trying to say. And that distortion continues, and so, my efforts to clarify continue.

I believe in supernatural healing. And I believe that we should seek supernatural healing. However, healing comes in many ways. Sometimes a supernatural healing is instantaneous. Sometimes it is partial with the complete healing to follow. Sometimes healing is delayed for a season, and we wait expectantly. And, as we all know, sometimes supernatural healing isn't given. The reasons and theories as to why healing manifests in these ways is often a mystery. Sometimes there is lack of faith, sometimes an instantaneous healing isn't a part of God's plan.

But what do we do if we find ourselves waiting for a supernatural healing?

There are different opinions.

Some will say that we shouldn't take any medication whatsoever and that to do so only indicates doubt. And, while it can indicate doubt, that isn't always the case. Sometimes symptoms can effect a person who has faith in healing enough that the person needs to have relief from those symptoms until the healing takes place.

I'm of the belief that there is nothing wrong with taking medication to treat undesirable symptoms if you find yourself waiting on God's healing power.

That brings us to the topic of medication. What medications should we take?

I don't see the Bible drawing any distinction between forms of medicine. In Scripture we see that the people of ancient Israel used healing balms, herbs, and ointments. Wine (an intoxicant) was used to cleanse wounds, to help people sleep, or to relieve pain, anxiety, and to help sedate the dying. In ancient times, all forms of medicine were natural remedies. Even the healing power and grace of God is symbolized as the, Balm of Gilead. In the NT we see people who had various conditions who had sought help from physicians, and all treatment was to no avail. They are never condemned for seeking a physician's treatment. But it is emphasized that in many cases, the physicians didn't have the power to cure the problem. It is in these circumstances that we see the healing power of Jesus. And so, we see Jesus referred to as the Great Physician. I want to emphasize that while it is noted that physicians cannot always cure every condition, no where do we see physicians or the seeking of a physician's aid, or medicine condemned.

But what if a medication is intoxicating or as psychoactive elements? Many medication effects the brain in one way or another, even alcohol. Paul advised Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach's sake and his oft infirmities.

Think about that for a moment... Paul told Timothy to drink some wine. I'm sure someone could judge Paul and say,

"Oh, so that's Paul's solution? 'Here Timothy, have a bottle of California Red, and drink up!' Paul's just a carnal drunk! He needs the Holy Ghost.'"

But that wouldn't be fair, would it? Of course not. Paul wasn't advising that Timothy take a little wine for his ailments so that Timothy could party and get wasted. Paul only advised that Timothy take a little wine (indicating moderation) for his oft infirmities (as needed). Certainly someone could press the issue and make Paul look irresponsible, faithless towards Timothy's healing, and argue that by advising that Timothy drink wine, he was putting Timothy at risk to be a drunk and miss out on God. But those concerns are purely speculative and based on fear. We know that wine can aid in digestion, is rich in antioxidants, and can lower cholesterol...if consumed responsibly in moderation. Yes, wine, an intoxicant, has medicinal benefits. Medicinal benefits that were unexplainable, but understood in ancient times. Paul had no problem advising that Timothy take an intoxicant in moderation to relieve his infirmities.

Why then should we fear the idea of people taking any medication shown to relieve unpleasant symptoms of any condition we might have?

The truth is, we shouldn't have any fear in the matter. Of course, medical science isn't a miracle working solution. Some things will work for some people and not for others. Some medications will be found to be undesirable by many people, even if they are shown to have some benefit. Others might swear by those very same medications. This is why there isn't a one size fits all answer. For example, I dislike taking Delsym cough syrup, especially if I know I'll have to go to work the next morning. It makes me feel buzzed and makes my thoughts foggy. It's an unpleasant feeling. But my family seems to swear by it. And I admit that it works. I just don't like it. So, I believe taking any kind of medication is a matter of personal conviction.

Which brings us to the question... "What about more controversial medications?"

Well, as I said above, I believe that's a matter of personal conviction. Right now, the medicinal value of cannabis in relation to how it helps relieve the symptoms of various conditions is a hot topic with more and more states legalizing it for medicinal and even recreational use. Many people have tried it and don't like it. Others have tried it and felt relief from terrible symptoms they've endured for years. Take into consideration, it has only been illegal since the 1960's. For the majority of human history, it was relatively common and consumed anywhere one might find hemp being grown for textiles, oils, etc. The politics behind how it became illegal, the falsified studies, and the big corporate interests that pushed for its prohibition is fascinating history, even if one has no interest in taking it personally. All these factors have aided in creating a stigma about the plant that isn't entirely reflective of reality. And in our day of advanced synthetically engineered medications that have terrible side effects...anything all natural that doesn't have the same terrible side effects is preferred by many. I had read an article about a woman named Heather who had multiple seizures every day. She tried various medications and they either didn't work, or left her feeling terrible along with a number of undesirable side effects. At the end of her rope, she tried cannabis... and she stopped having seizures. She's been seizure free for year snow. Since, she has become an advocate for legalization and holistic health. I think she's a bit flaky in her style and manners, but her information and personal experience is rather informative. Her story mirrors those of many parents who had exhausted all resources to treat their kids symptoms and seizures. Then there are individuals with PTSD and anxiety disorders who have also seen symptoms of their conditions become manageable or eliminated altogether after using cannabis medicinally in its various forms. Not to mention, over 60 peer reviewed studies on it indicating numerous medicinal benefits ranging from pain management, to seizures, to Parkinson's disease, to anxiety disorders, to the management of symptoms relating to cancer treatment.

As new information is gained, positions in the medical community and culture change. Times change. We need not be locked into paradigms set by the world. We must be flexible as it relates to things in the natural plane.

The natural plane... that leads me to this thought. Who created cannabis and all these things? Jesus did. And when He created all these things, He said that it was good. It is man who says that these things are bad. And by calling the creation good, God is indicating that His creation is for man's benefit and the working of His will. We thank Him for the harvest of His bounty in all things. Why do we not thank Him for natural medicines and remedies?

So, as you probably have concluded, I believe that God heals. It might be through miraculous healing, it might be through guiding the hands and minds of doctors and surgeons. He might heal or relieve suffering through the medicinal qualities of the things that He has made. Are there dangers? Certainly. Anything can be abused, including food, sex, alcohol, etc. But benefiting from the work of His hands through principled use is no sin. I don't believe in putting God in a box and expecting everything He does to be "supernatural". I find the things God does through natural means just as miraculous as those things He does through supernatural means. To Him belongs all glory, honor, and power.

So, regardless as to if healing or relief come through a divine touch, a doctor's hands, or a medicine... God is to be praised.

The idea that medications are sin is dangerous, in my opinion. Should one believe such a teaching, they might cease taking medications they desperately need and the results can be tragic. I strongly admonish a balanced and principled approach that takes all known factors into consideration. If God desires to heal someone of a condition supernaturally, there isn't a single medication available that can stop Him. In fact, there are many reports wherein medication that has been taken for years suddenly made one sick because they were healed. God's hands are not tied by anything.

I pray I have answered your question.

I want to thank you for being concerned for my welfare, and for inquiring about my motives without accusation. The kindness, concern, and gentleness of your spirit is beautifully refreshing.

I pray that I have adequately explained my understanding, my motives, and my intentions so as to leave no doubt that I'm not advocating the abuse of any substance or drunkenness.

I can only hope that you can see how my detractors have distorted what I'm saying and maligned my character time and time again, causing me to strive to clarify myself, time and time again.

Thank you for your kindness, your time, and your consideration.

May God richly bless you and yours.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

EB, I'm going to dodge the bullets and bayonets and step in long enough to ask one question about the OP. Since you have an interest in drugs and religion and how they interact, do you have any knowledge of freemasonry and the Illuminati in regards to using drugs to reach a higher level of enlightenment?

I'm going to duck back into the bunker. I'll watch for your response, just in case you don't get mortally wounded. Oh, not to exclude you Aquila, you seem to be knowledgeable as well. I'd be interested in hearing from y'all.

Thank you for inviting my thoughts on this. It's an interesting question.

I don't know about any true "enlightenment" being able to be achieved through the side effects of any substance. And I have very little personal experience with drugs. What most people feel as "enlightenment" is probably just a part of being stoned. If they wrote the things down they were gaining an understanding of, we'd probably find it incoherent, and admonish that they go get some sleep.

I've read things by people who "claim" that some drugs unlock aspects of the subconscious and bring them to the surface. For example, one person articulated that if cannabis makes one paranoid... it is only because they are insecure about something, have some hidden secret, or fear not being safe. I can't say that any of that is authoritative. It's just what I read on a blog somewhere. So, I'd take it with a gain of salt. I do know person who started taking cannabis and during their experience the memory of early childhood abuse surfaced. It was something they had blocked out and suppressed for decades. But, I don't know if that was the result of any altered state of consciousness, or if it was just that the drug quieted the mind long enough for this suppressed memory to surface.

But one doesn't need a drug to unlock suppressed memories. Prayer, meditation, Godly counsel, and such like can do the same.

My daughter had surgery. Afterwards, she was really loopy. I'm sure she thought she made sense when talking out of her head. But, the truth is, she didn't. So, I don't buy into the idea that a drug can bring any meaningful spiritual enlightenment or insight that would be trust worthy.

As far as Freemasonry and the Illuminati, I have very little knowledge of those things. I'd have to allow EB to elaborate on their possible relevance to this topic.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Hate to break this to anyone, but the amount of wine Paul told Timothy to drink would be a spoonful. Mixed in his water which he was drinking. Paul is telling Timothy the young evangelist to not only drink water exclusively but wine with it. Is Aquila recommending CBD? That isn't what we are discussing he and I. His quote is about the LIFE CHANGING effects of Marijuana. This is all a game to Chris, and if you go back to the beginning, and also the other thread which was locked (which Chris offered) you will find his motive. He starts out in one vein, and posts freely. He actually let's you know early his agenda. That is plain. He is now pray for the doctors hand to be guided, pray for the chemo to work, Jesus works through medicine. That wasn't what we were arguing about.

Legalized marijuana, not cold medicine, not insulin, not surgery, and not gummy bear CBD.

But psychotropic plants, and fungi used in ancient religious ceremonies now being pushed on the weak and troubled. Who desperately need Jesus Christ, and not to replace Jesus Christ wonder working Spirit with pot.

I will leave you with this which Chris so honestly and openly admitted.

He is backpedaling now, but this is how he was pushing for those who suffer to come to a brighter day.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Now, imagine smoking legally prescribed cannabis and while a high is produced that lasts four or so hours, for the next 4 days, you feel sound and balanced. No nervous shaking, cold sweats, anxiety attacks, violent impulses, nightmares, racing thoughts, intrusive memories, or thoughts of suicide. In fact, compared to how your mind felt prior to smoking, you feel clear as a bell. Calm as rock. For four days. On day five, you detect an instance of racing thoughts, but it fades quickly. Day 6, the racing thoughts begin to come back, subtle anxiety is setting in again. Your mind feels clouded as it did prior to smoking. Nightmares might return at this time. And so, you now know your threshold... four days. So you smoke a little cannabis every four days before bed... for six months... and during that period... everyone who knows you wants to know what happened because now your actually talking to them and interacting normally. Your kids say, "Mom and dad don't fight like they used to.", "I'm not afraid of dad anymore.", "Dad doesn't scream and break things like before.", and your performance at work increases. Your love life returns to normal... it's like you get your entire life back.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Hate to break this to anyone, but the amount of wine Paul told Timothy to drink would be a spoonful. Mixed in his water which he was drinking. Paul is telling Timothy the young evangelist to not only drink water exclusively but wine with it.

Exactly, moderation and as need.

Is Aquila recommending CBD? That isn't what we are discussing he and I. His quote is about the LIFE CHANGING effects of Marijuana.

I have mentioned the value of CBDs. I don't believe we're debating about these seeing that they are not psychoactive properties.

What is being debated is the use of medical cannabis that has THC content. Some studies indicate that for some anxiety disorders, the THC content can be beneficial. And if they are right, the side effect of a 4 to 6 hour "high" is nothing compared to the side effects of many prescription medications. So, if taken responsibly, I'd have no concerns.

My quote was a hypothetical. And if you watched the videos I posted with children suffering from as many as 16 seizures a day who have benefitted from medical cannabis, you'd agree... for these families, it was life changing.

This is all a game to Chris, and if you go back to the beginning, and also the other thread which was locked (which Chris offered) you will find his motive. He starts out in one vein, and posts freely. He actually let's you know early his agenda. That is plain. He is now pray for the doctors hand to be guided, pray for the chemo to work, Jesus works through medicine. That wasn't what we were arguing about.

Our "arguments" often go all over the map. Do you really think that I'm on an Apostolic forum, after being Apostolic for 29+ years, advocating toking it up every night, just for fun? Also, you called me a "troll". I think I have far too many posts on the forum, with too many years of membership, to be called a "troll". But, I admit, I don't always agree with the majority. But sometimes some dissention is good so we don't become a mutual admiration society.

Legalized marijuana, not cold medicine, not insulin, not surgery, and not gummy bear CBD.

Cannabis has only been illegal since the 1960's. Prior to that it was quite common in medications in the United States and abroad. You act like it is a dark shadowy specter of an idea that bucks against thousands of years of tradition. All legalization would do is return laws back to the way they were in the late 1800's and early 1900's, and end the un-Constitutional drug war being waged over a plant.

But psychotropic plants, and fungi used in ancient religious ceremonies now being pushed on the weak and troubled. Who desperately need Jesus Christ, and not to replace Jesus Christ wonder working Spirit with pot.

Nobody advocated that.

I will leave you with this which Chris so honestly and openly admitted.

My statement was only a hypothetical expressing the experience of many who have taken cannabis for the symptoms of PTSD.

He is backpedaling now, but this is how he was pushing for those who suffer to come to a brighter day.

I am not back peddling. What's happening is that you're now realizing that you've been blowing everything I'm saying WAAAAYYYY out of proportion.

Have you ever been told by a medical professional that you might need any form of medication?

Please share and tell us how you've managed it so far.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Have you ever been told by a medical professional that you might need any form of medication?

Please share and tell us how you've managed it so far.

No, have you?

Originally Posted by Aquila

Exactly, moderation and as need.

No, Chris, it was a mixture of used for irritable stomach. What we do down here is take Braggs Apple Cider Vinegar mixed with water to aid in hydration. Also in the Middle East the ancients used fermented milks and vegetables to aid in digestion. All Judeans and Israelis practiced moderation, in foods, and in wine. Also ancient fermented wine is about 10 proof, far from the super wines we have today. Also the poor had a wine called vinegar which was heavily watered down, and was about 5 proof 2.5 % A B V. Hence the reason they drank MIXED WINE Proverbs 23:30. They did it to get hammered.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I have mentioned the value of CBDs. I don't believe we're debating about these seeing that they are not psychoactive properties.

You also mentioned aspirin, so? Here is where you start posting to your opponent like they are morons. Do you have any friends outside this forum? 'm serious as a heart attack, you need to find a group of people who believe in Jesus Christ, the power of Jesus name, baptism in Jesus name, the infilling of the Holy Ghost to the miraculous power! Get help.

Originally Posted by Aquila

What is being debated is the use of medical cannabis that has THC content.

Why are you saying this?

Originally Posted by Aquila

Some studies indicate that for some anxiety disorders, the THC content can be beneficial.

Yeah, like back in the 1960s Camel cigarettes claimed more doctors smoked their brand. Cocaine was supposed to help you with asthma, menstrual cramps, baldness, seizures. Opium juice a panacea for its treatment of headaches, nausea, depression, diarrhea, gout. Even Benjamin Franklin used it, and loved it. Quaker’s Black Drop, an opium-based lozenge, and Dr. Barton’s “brown mixture,” which combined opium with licorice. What about Morphine! After the Civil War vets were returning with PTSD, they weren't sent to the little church down the lane. They were given morphine to calm shell shock. Look, we've been suffering as a people for hundreds of years, not from just illness, but for the stupidity of "Some studies indicate!!!"

Originally Posted by Aquila

And if they are right,

If a bullfrog had wings he wouldn't bump his rear end every time he hopped.

The Holy Ghost works, dope doesn't.

We have the history of potheads and Holy Ghost filled saints. Sorry, but smoking a shake bag doesn't get you to a brighter day

Originally Posted by Aquila

the side effect of a 4 to 6 hour "high" is nothing compared to the side effects of many prescription medications. So, if taken responsibly, I'd have no concerns.

When was the last time you smoke weed?

Originally Posted by Aquila

My quote was a hypothetical. And if you watched the videos I posted with children suffering from as many as 16 seizures a day who have benefitted from medical cannabis, you'd agree... for these families, it was life changing.

Chris, heroin was once given to children for seizures, pot effects the brain adversely. Burn out ring a bell? Mr Expert? Your quote was hypothetical? So, what does that mean? You actually didn't believe your hypothesis would work? Chris, your quote is what you believed, what you believe would happen if people smoked pot. That was your hypothetical for a hypothetical dad who needed a to stop blowing up with his family. A dad who didn't have a good relationship with people around him. He smokes a bag, and he is walking in victory and newness of life. Hypothetical, made up story, a hallucination, something you dreamed, whatever, you posted that people smoking grass will be converted to newness of life.

Chris, own it, stop already.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Our "arguments" often go all over the map. Do you really think that I'm on an Apostolic forum, after being Apostolic for 29+ years, advocating toking it up every night, just for fun? Also, you called me a "troll". I think I have far too many posts on the forum, with too many years of membership, to be called a "troll". But, I admit, I don't always agree with the majority. But sometimes some dissention is good so we don't become a mutual admiration society.

Aquila, you became a member when you were an Apostolic. You got your divorce while you were a member. You were here during the IHATEAPOSTOLIC days when everyone loved to discuss how the Ultra conservative Apostolics were cults. You were here when the Apostolics mostly left to other forums which didn't have the "I hate pastors, I hate standards, I hate tithing to a pastor, I hate having anyone tell me anything" crew. But I guess that is what always strikes me odd about religious people, they are nuts. They leave Islam, but want to hang out with Muslims, and complain about Islam. Problem is, that the devout Muslims don't allow it. Catholics also don't play, Eastern Orthodox don't have time, Hindus, really don't dig hearing the opinion of those who leave Hinduism. But seriously, if I wasn't Apostolic Pentecostal, I would NEVER post here EVER!!!!!

That's just crazy!!

Originally Posted by Aquila

Cannabis has only been illegal since the 1960's. Prior to that it was quite common in medications in the United States and abroad. You act like it is a dark shadowy specter of an idea that bucks against thousands of years of tradition. All legalization would do is return laws back to the way they were in the late 1800's and early 1900's, and end the un-Constitutional drug war being waged over a plant.

You were the kid smoking oregano. Dude did you even hang out with smokers? Did you listen to the Dead and go to the concerts, ever been to a Dead concert? Bro, did you know any crispy dudes and dudettes?

Originally Posted by Aquila

Nobody advocated that.

No my man, you are advocating that.
No doubt in my mind.

When was the last time you smoked a joint? When was the last time you ingested cannabis?

Originally Posted by Aquila

My statement was only a hypothetical expressing the experience of many who have taken cannabis for the symptoms of PTSD.

But why? Why would you go as far to paint dope as a life changing conversion? Pretty telling how you framed your hypothetical? Or else you believe we are the blind, and you are the one eyed king?

Originally Posted by Aquila

I am not back peddling. What's happening is that you're now realizing that you've been blowing everything I'm saying WAAAAYYYY out of proportion.

Bro, you are back peddling, I have been reading your stuff since you were in a conservative Apostolic church. Blowing out of proportion? You would like everyone to believe that. Yet, you are a skater, shapshifter, you want to smoke dope to get your inner demons under control. Well, that's all on you. Hard trying to get someone who was once in Holy Ghost services to believe that could ever help them again. Didn't you say you went to an Apostolic Church and your PTSD started acting up? Hey, don't answer that, this conversation is going nowhere.

What a shame.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Now, imagine smoking legally prescribed cannabis and while a high is produced that lasts four or so hours, for the next 4 days, you feel sound and balanced. No nervous shaking, cold sweats, anxiety attacks, violent impulses, nightmares, racing thoughts, intrusive memories, or thoughts of suicide. In fact, compared to how your mind felt prior to smoking, you feel clear as a bell. Calm as rock. For four days. On day five, you detect an instance of racing thoughts, but it fades quickly. Day 6, the racing thoughts begin to come back, subtle anxiety is setting in again. Your mind feels clouded as it did prior to smoking. Nightmares might return at this time. And so, you now know your threshold... four days. So you smoke a little cannabis every four days before bed... for six months... and during that period... everyone who knows you wants to know what happened because now your actually talking to them and interacting normally. Your kids say, "Mom and dad don't fight like they used to.", "I'm not afraid of dad anymore.", "Dad doesn't scream and break things like before.", and your performance at work increases. Your love life returns to normal... it's like you get your entire life back.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Sure thing bro. If Jesus doesn't heal me, and I shoot myself to end this, will you take care of my kids? I'd appreciate that.

Drama? Or just plain trolling foolishness?

Chris you need help

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Drama? Or just plain trolling foolishness?

Chris you need help

I already explained that.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

If a bullfrog had wings he wouldn't bump his rear end every time he hopped.

[houston]

WHY HASN'T HE BEEN BANNED?

I tried to find someone to contact from his Facebook page. It looked like his wife/girlfriend/fiancé/whatever hasn’t posted in ten years. So I didn’t message her.

Amanah travailed until she spoke in every Chinese dialect since the Xia dynasty.

This fool returns like nothing...

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by houston

WHY HASN'T HE BEEN BANNED?

I tried to find someone to contact from his Facebook page. It looked like his wife/girlfriend/fiancé/whatever hasn’t posted in ten years. So I didn’t message her.

Amanah travailed until she spoke in every Chinese dialect since the Xia dynasty.

This fool returns like nothing...

He is the Guerilla SJW come to combat the Old Social Order of Pentecost. He wants to get Medieval on all the Conservative Christians and avenge Lois' hair cuttings. He wants to prove to us that he is an Ecclesiastical Gangsta, his girl isn't on no Facebook. He wants to open up a New Dimension in sight and sound, he wants to supply all us boys and girls with Kronic